Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 03:01:49 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #394 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1700 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Kwan Jangs' self promotion (was Re: Non-prof) (Christopher Spiller) 2. Re: New to it all (ABurrese@aol.com) 3. New to it all, and next door to forty. (David Weller) 4. Brainerd hapkido seminar (Renee Taylor) 5. Re: Kwan Jangs' self promotion (was Re: Non-prof) (Ray Terry) 6. Professional vs. Nonprofessional.... (Chris Holmes) 7. Early Rank (Jon Payne) 8. Grip Training and Hapkido (Stovall, Craig) 9. Re: Early Rank (Ray Terry) 10. RE: New to it all (Jeffery Dean Sr.) 11. Re: RE: New to it all (Ray Terry) 12. RE: Early Rank (Rick Clark) 13. RE: A question for John Johnson (John Johnson) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:49:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kwan Jangs' self promotion (was Re: Non-prof) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >This is an interesting point. After the end of WWII >there was no one in Korea to promote the Korean >Karate kwan heads. They obviously weren't going >to ask for promotion from Japan, so what did they >do? They all met and agreed to promote themselves. >I believe the first such joint promotion was to >give themselves all 4th Dans. No testing... no look >at prior rank (if any), just "we're all kwan jangs, >we're now all 4th Dans, all in agreement signify by >raising your hand, approved, congrats on our >promotion..." >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com Ray, Just out of curiosity, do you have a reference for this meeting? I don't doubt that it took place at all, especially given the feelings of animisity between Korea and Japand at the time. I'm just curious as to the when, who, where aspects of things. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:30:34 -0400 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: New to it all Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>First off - how many folks join up at 40 years and manage >>to go the >>distance? >> >>Is it wise to attend twice a week or is once the limit? >> >>John Moore John, I have a student who started last year that is 52. He had some Judo in his background, but never to dan level. He goes to my two Hapkido classes every week and also goes to one or two Jujitsu classes from another instructor in town. Thing is, don't let me, or anyone else, tell you what your limits are. If you want to do it, you will. Age and other factors won't get in your way if it is a goal you desire. I know of people who started a lot older than 50 and earned their black belts. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: David Weller Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:51:07 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] New to it all, and next door to forty. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Mr. Moore, Since your post did not mention the Moo Duk Kwan I feel safe in responding. Welcome to the wonderful world of martial arts training. I started my training at age 38 (did Judo 2 years in college, but the gap is too great to make much difference). I train in traditional Tae Kwon Do. I recently turned 49. My take on this is that it's never too late to start and certainly never too late to learn something new. I guess I've gone the distance (or the first portion of it anyhow) and am honored to wear Black around my waist in the Dojang. As far as training frequency, you'll feel better the more you go. Early on I was at the Dojang 4 times a week (I went to every class that was offered). I was sore every day, but loved the feeling. I also do forms, stretch, etc at home to keep the old muscles moving .. Infrequent training (less than 2 times a week) IMHO is worse than none at all, but I'm no Physical therapist either. Go often, work hard, and remember : "old age and treachery always win out over youth and enthusiasm" Enjoy your trip, be good friends with Tiger Balm, and don't give up!! dave weller On Sep 17, 2004, at 11:48 AM, "John Moore" > Hi folks, > > I have just attended my second session with The Master and am feeling a > little sore - legs/back etc.. > > Now being next door to 40 and heading towards 18 stone it is hardly > likely that I was going to find it a piece of cake and this, due to the > influence of friends, appeared to be a good idea to both keep fit and > enjoy doing it at the same time. > > As the whole show is still a bit of a mystery to me I am loaded with > questions and I hope this group will allow me the ability to ask away > without looking a prune ;-) > > First off - how many folks join up at 40 years and manage to go the > distance? > > Is it wise to attend twice a week or is once the limit? --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Renee Taylor" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:35:12 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Brainerd hapkido seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Grand Master Timmerman, We are writing to thank you and your devoted assistants for the very imformational seminar you presented. We enjoyed it a lot and more importantly learned. It reenforced what Master DeWitt and Mrs. Keppers are teaching us and showed us new techniques as well. It was a pleasure to see you again. We are looking forward to the next time! Sincerely, Renee and Natalie Taylor _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kwan Jangs' self promotion (was Re: Non-prof) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Just out of curiosity, do you have a reference for > this meeting? I don't doubt that it took place at all, > especially given the feelings of animisity between > Korea and Japand at the time. I'm just curious as to > the when, who, where aspects of things. The info comes from a 80+ year old TKD grandmaster. The particulars may be cited in his newest book, but I have no idea when it will make it to the publisher. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:51:04 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Professional vs. Nonprofessional.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wanted to interject this point after reading JC from Gladewater's post on his school..... First congratulations on the 100 students....Not a bad number although it depends on the size of the town you're in..... I didn't get this impression from JC's post but I've heard it lots of times..... The bigger your school is the less quality you have....Teaching for profit is damaging the art..... My competition uses this one all the time..... "we have a small group of excellent students.... don't want to get any bigger cause the quality will suffer....." I don't have a big school yet....almost to 50 in a town of 13,000. 4 other schools in the same town.... I am the largest and still growning. This is going to be a career for me unless God directs me somewhere else.....I will put my students up against anyone's in terms of quality.... I don't claim to have the best but they keep getting better.... As an instructor it is my responsibiliy to transform the 40 lb weakling and give him or her the skills and self confidence/self discipline they need to be sucessful in life. If I drive them away then I'm not doing my job.... With regards to class and school size...... a friend of mine, Master Diego Perez has around 700 students at one school..... class size is around 100 on the mat at one time..... His kids are awesome..... he is awesome....So bigger can be better when you know what to do with it ; ) One more thing... Anyone in a town with a comparable pop. got an idea on how big I can realistically get? Thanks Chris _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jon Payne" To: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:47:45 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Early Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>No testing... no look at prior rank (if any), just "we're all kwan jangs, we're now all 4th Dans, all in agreement signify by raising your hand, approved, congrats on our promotion...">> Ray, If they just promoted themselves to 4th Dan, where did the information/techniques come from for the senior ranks? Did they just make it up as they went along or did they continue to study and get the info anyway possible like books etc. ? Makes sense if that was the way things were done that the Japanese arts/artist would look down their noses at any art from Korea. What makes an art legitimate? Jon --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:27:38 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Grip Training and Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just out of general curiosity... I know we have more than a few Hapkido players on the list. It seems to me that the development of a powerful grip would be to the advantage of a person working many of Hapkido's grappling techniques. Particularly those techniques related to joint manipulation in which the Hapkido player is grasping the opponent's hand, wrist, arm, elbow, shoulder, or clothing. I'm not implying that these techniques are strength based, or that they would be improved by utilizing raw strength. But, common sense and experience tells me that there is some strength component to everything in the martial arts. After all, it takes strength just to get out of bed in the morning, and it would be bad to find out that your grip is the weakest link in the chain when the feces hits the fan. I'm curious if Hapkido has a tradition of prescribed exercises to develop and maintain the grip. If not, do any of the players here utilize a specific program to develop their grip? I would imagine someone that could close one of these "Captains of Crush" grippers could put a hurting on someone. Craig Stovall United States Slender Wrists and Weak Grips Society (Trademark Pending) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Early Rank To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If they just promoted themselves to 4th Dan, where did the > information/techniques come from for the senior ranks? Did they just make > it up as they went along or did they continue to study and get the info > anyway possible like books etc. ? Makes sense if that was the way things > were done that the Japanese arts/artist would look down their noses at any > art from Korea. What makes an art legitimate? As to what makes an art legit, it guess if it works it is legit. Or if people will pay you to teach it... :) The CDK's Lee Won-kuk apparently got to 3rd Dan before the end of WWII. That is probably why Hwang Kee and others wanted to train with him. But remember that Funakoshi's highest Karate-do rank was 5th Dan. So getting to 3rd was really quite an accomplishment. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Jeffery Dean Sr." To: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:08:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: New to it all Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John, first me say welcome to the digest and to the mat. Not knowing what 18 stones translates to I will say this - 3 1/2 years ago at the age of 39 and weighing a lithe 350lbs I started trainging in Tang Soo Do. I now weigh in at about 305lbs and hope to be down to about 260 in Jan. With a little more mat time and hard work I should be testing for my Cho Dan then. Or as Mstr Terry would say I need to eat more rice :) Good luck and again welcome to the digest and to the mat. Tang Soo Dean Sr. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: New to it all To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > John, first me say welcome to the digest and to the mat. Not knowing what 18 > stones translates to I will say this - 3 1/2 years ago at the age of 39 and > weighing a lithe 350lbs I started trainging in Tang Soo Do. I now weigh in at > about 305lbs and hope to be down to about 260 in Jan. 1 stone = 14 lbs. So John comes in at a slim 252 lbs. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Early Rank Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:30:19 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jon, > From: Jon Payne [mailto:payne1224@gt.rr.com] > >>No testing... no look at prior rank (if any), > just "we're all kwan jangs, we're now all 4th Dans, all in agreement > signify > by raising your hand, approved, congrats on our promotion...">> > > Ray, > If they just promoted themselves to 4th Dan, where did the > information/techniques come from for the senior ranks? Did they just make > it up as they went along or did they continue to study and get the info > anyway possible like books etc. ? Back in those days there were not a lot of books on the martial arts, those that are out there are hard to find. > Makes sense if that was the way things > were done that the Japanese arts/artist would look down their noses at any > art from Korea. I think the Japanese would have looked down their collective noses at anything from Korea. When the Japanese occupied Korea they were quite behind the times and Japan was on the upswing in the Orient. One of the reasons Japan occupied Korea was to try and balance the power of Russia which was starting to flex it muscles and was starting to occupy China and get port facilities. The Japanese, from my understanding, was trying to put the brakes on Russia and keep control in that part of the world away from Russia. Japan saw it's self as the big brother of the weaker nations and had the responsibility and opportunity (more opportunity I think) to exert more control and gain financially and to increase the power of Japan as an emerging nation on the world. > What makes an art legitimate? Good question - and one I have asked myself many times. Consider that there were 9th dan's out there in the early 60's which means that they would have had to get to that rank between about 1945 and 1960. Interesting things to think about. > > Jon Rick Clark If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking. --General George S. Patton www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] A question for John Johnson Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:12:59 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris, You're absolutely correct that the name of my Hapkido kwan took it's name from UlJi MoonDuk. If you look at a map of Seoul you'll also find a large area of downtown was also named after him. One more place I have seen his name is the ITF pattern "UlJi". It's good to see someone out there knows their Korean history! John >From: Christopher Spiller >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] A question for John Johnson >Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:48:41 -0700 (PDT) > >Mr. Johnson, > >I noticed in your last posting that you have dan >ranking in Ul Ji Kwan Hapkido. I was just wondering >about the name of the kwan as the only other time I've >seen that name is for the ITF 4th dan tul "Ul Ji", >which is named after Ul Ji Moon Duk, a korean general >in the 7th century. > >Thanks in advance! > >Taekwon, > >Chris > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list,  1700 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest