Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 07:49:03 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #397 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1700 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Lee, Won Kuk (Ray Terry) 2. sorry (Ray Terry) 3. Lee, Won Kuk----and the Split of Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do (Master Arce) 4. Do Bahk trim (George Peters) 5. NKMAA seminar (Rudy Timmerman) 6. Re: Grip Training and Hapkido (jeffrey kiral) 7. Experience (Rudy Timmerman) 8. (no subject) (John Hancock) 9. Rank Looney Tunes (John Hancock) 10. It still isn't your MDK to use as YOU see fit. (John Hancock) 11. Re: It still isn't your MDK to use as YOU see fit. (Ray Terry) 12. RE: ATA vs. WTF (Thomas Gordon) 13. OT - Ivan (Thomas Gordon) 14. Re: Kwan Jangs' self promotion (Christopher Spiller) 15. Re: A question for John Johnson (Christopher Spiller) 16. Sharing Traditions (Barrie Restall) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Lee, Won Kuk To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "Don't forget that traditional Shotokan only goes up > to Fifth Dan. Fifth was > End of the line. Not sure were everything else came > from, but maybe we should go back to something like that?" > Frank > > Hi Master Terry and Clay. :) Fifth (Go Dan in > Japanese and Oh Dan in Korean) Dan = End of the line?... :) > > Just try :) telling that to: Master H. Kanazawa: > 10th Dan (http://www.fightingmaster.com/legends/kanazawa/), > Master Kenneth (Son of Founder) Funakoshi: 9th Dan, > Master Shigeru Egami: 9th Dan, Master ... Kenneth is not the son of the founder, he is a nephew or grandnephew as I recall. He has a dojo here in town. The point was that originally Karate-do only went up to 5th Dan. Funakoshi's rank, the founder, was 5th Dan. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] sorry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Whoops, sorry. I let an entire issue of the digest go back out again in a single msg. Now you folks that do that can see why I typically reject those emails back to you... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:27:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Master Arce To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Lee, Won Kuk----and the Split of Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net and Moo Duk Kwan Soo Bahk Do, as we know it/them today.... It seems as if (Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do coming from Shotokan, which came from Shorin Ryu, by way of, etc...) this is NOT the ONLY thing or things we took (or got, depending on YOUR School of Thought...) from Shotokan...Please read, and then tell me what EACH OF YOU THINK. Thanks in Advance. Peace... EDITORIAL By John Cheetham I've said it MANY times before, but where we (SKM) are concerned, 'SHOTOKAN' IS 'One' Family, Regardless of Technical or Political Differences, or Emphasis, etc., and you CANNOT get anymore diverse than the "SHOTOKAI", who's most Senior Instructor in Europe, Sensei Master Mitsusuke Harada (9th Dan), as you can see, is featured in this issue of "SKM". Harada Sensei CLAIMS to teach, 'Orthodox' or "Original' Shotokan Karate. Some (or MANY) will possibly question this? However, it's a great story and there's NO denying Harada Sensei's Remarkable Pedigree. One of Harada Sensei's longest practicing students, Stephen Hope, 5th Dan, said of his Teacher and Master... "Harada Sensei is one of those people you meet ONLY ONCE in a lifetime. An individual of rare and exceptional talent. To his Students he is a Genius, Philosopher and Teacher, a man who, in the Dojo, has NO concern for age, sex, colour, culture or religion. In his quest to Teach understanding and excellence, he abandoned Out-Dated Rituals and brought an atmosphere of Freedom and Democracy that allowed NEW ideas and methods to flourish! He has spent a lifetime in the pursuit of excellence, in Himself and his Students, and has always kept his goals clear, NEVER allowing himself to be side- tracked by trivialities, politics, etc. But perhaps his Greatness, is the fact that he can bring together people of ALL denominations and from different walks of life under ONE roof, to strive together in harmony for a better understanding." ---------------------------------------------------------- Well it's NO secret that the "Shotokai" and the "JKA" (Japan Karate Association) were NEVER on the best of terms (to put it MILDLY!) and disagreed on virtually EVERYTHING, both technically and politically! So, even at the start, there were different factions in Shotokan, even though they were ALL Directly related to Doshu Funakoshi's Shotokan Karate. I'm certain "JKA" Senseis and Masters like Nishiyama, Okazaki and Sugiura, would ALL 'Also' Claim to be Teaching 'Orthodox' or 'Original' Shotokan Karate! As they are ALL around the same age as Master Harada Sensei, and ALL trained Under Grand Master, Doshu Funakoshi! And according to American historian Randall Hassell, from his excellent book, 'Shotokan Karate, Its History and Evolution' (ISBN 0- 911921-05-02) Master Funakoshi was very active with the formation and running of the JKA and went to the JKA Honbu (HQ) Dojo EVERY day until the day he died in 1957'! The history of Shotokan Karate is a bit of a puzzle! I've read so MANY varying accounts that it's almost amusing! However, like all 'families' there will always be differences! Still, what's most important is the 'here and now', not the past, and Shotokan Karate is as strong as ever worldwide, so we must be doing something right! You know the old saying... "Don't change what works." ----------------------------------------------------------- Patrick McCarthy's article 'makes sense' of what kata really is, and indeed, where it evolved from. We have an interview with Pat McCarthy (for a later edition), basically about why he opened a college specifically for 'instructors'. One point he makes in the interview that stuck in my mind was when he said...."I'll be the first to admit that the goals of this program are so far removed from street fighting that we could never possibly represent a threat to any school, tradition or organisation which trains for that application." That's an honest approach! ----------------------------------------------------------- Good health and good training! Editor. Seems as "if" we inherited MORE (Dissension, Mutiny, etc.) than just Karate Do from Shotokan...Huh? -------------------------- Peace!!!! Tang Soo!!!! Soo Bahk!!!! Steve M. Arce Do San Dojang Dan Bon # : 4061 http://www.geocities.com/dosanmartialartsschool/ http://www.masterssite.com/images/MtrArce.gif _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:55:04 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Do Bahk trim Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, We had a real go-around on this a while back if you check the archives. One thing I CAN attest to though, it sure makes the collars and cuffs a lot easier to keep clean!.LOL Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:32:06 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] NKMAA seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dr. Taylor writes: > Hello Grand Master Timmerman, > We are writing to thank you and your devoted assistants for the very > imformational seminar you presented. We enjoyed it a lot and more > importantly learned. It reenforced what Master DeWitt and Mrs. Keppers > are > teaching us and showed us new techniques as well. It was a pleasure to > see > you again. We are looking forward to the next time! > Sincerely, Renee and Natalie Taylor Hello Dr. Taylor: Thank you so much for your compliments. It is always nice to hear that people enjoy what I do. The assistants I brought with me are also DD members, so they will surely appreciate your comments as well. Feedback is a great tool for me, as it helps me in preparing for the next events. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Grip Training and Hapkido Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:38:04 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net we do fingertip pushups to start out class...i personally do wrist curls, reverse grip wrist curls, reverse curls and some other specialized exercises on my own twice a week...fyi. they help tremedously. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stovall, Craig" To: Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 2:27 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Grip Training and Hapkido --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:37:28 -0400 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Experience Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lois writes: > ... At 51 years of age, I decided to go back to the martial arts after > an eight year hiatus and four months of bedrest from illness. I > started with stretching twice per day for two months and then started > attending classes. I found (and still find) that three times per week > is optimum. Just my experience fwiw. > Chronologically experienced Lois Hello Lois: You are an amazing woman, and few people have the determination you have. I love your pos, and I hope Mr. Moore will step up his class time to three times per week. From my experience, it is the best schedule for "experienced" practitioners:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "John Hancock" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:01:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The trim on our Doboks is based upon the ancient style of clothing in Korea.  And...even further back...to Tang China.  The 'midnightblue' color is actually taken from the 'indigo' color used in ancient times to die cloth.  It was/is indicative of 'scholarship' and thus...a trimmed coat denoted a 'scholarly person'. JH   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "John Hancock" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:11:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Rank Looney Tunes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Don't forget that traditional Shotokan only goes up to fifth dan. Fifth was end of the line. Not sure were everything else came from, but maybe we should go back to something like that?"  Frank I agree.  5 Dans seem enough.  The rest seems a little....self effacing.  Unfortunately...I haven't had a lick of success in convincing anyone of this......as no one want to 'give up' rank (take me for instance...I'm a 6th...but I don't really care about that...and I'd be just as please to be referred to as a 5th.  It is the  junior members of my organization that throw a fit everytime I start talking about dropping my 6th and us just having 5 Dan ranks).   I met a guy in Louisville who advertises himself as a 17th Dan.  No....I'm not making that up and you didn't read it wrong.  He actually tells that to people.  Seems he has taken his Dan ranks in about 4 arts and added them together to come up with this number.  Because of this guy...I usually tell folks  I have a 360 Degree Black Belt (it goes all the way around my body) and my title is...."Emperor of Kentucky". JH   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "John Hancock" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:18:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] It still isn't your MDK to use as YOU see fit. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "US Soo Bahk Do had nothing, NOTHING, do with the creation of the MDK."   Ray Terry Yes...that is historically and technically correct.  However, they ARE the only legal representatives of the MDK in the U.S.  I hate to beat a dead horse...but if you aren't a member....you aren't MDK.   Give it up already!   It's infantile to keep hanging on the coat tails of someone else.  Time to grow up.  You don't need to be MDK or tell people you are MDK to be good and successful.  Have some pride folks and stand on your own feet.....or...is it your understanding of the martial arts simply a 'paper tiger' that is hollow: simply a veneer whose inside is without form or substance?   Everyone of salt that I've run across who has left the MDK.....stopped relying on calling themselves MDK to validate what they were doing.  They stood on their own merits...and not the mythological weight of their parent school. JH   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] It still isn't your MDK to use as YOU see fit. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "US Soo Bahk Do had nothing, NOTHING, do with the creation of > the MDK." Ray Terry > > Yes...that is historically and technically correct.  However, they ARE > the only legal representatives of the MDK in the U.S. Seems that is still being decided, but ok... > I hate to beat a > dead horse...but if you aren't a member....you aren't MDK.   Give it up > already!   It's infantile to keep hanging on the coat tails of someone > else.  Time to grow up.  You don't need to be MDK or tell people you are > MDK to be good and successful.  Have some pride folks and stand on your > own feet. Think whatever you like. Forget your past, matters not to me. But we cannot really change what we are or who taught us. In the art of "Korean Karate" my instructor's instructor was Hwang Kee. That made him MDK, it made me MDK, it makes my "Korean Karate" students MDK. So back to what was said previously, one cannot change who their instructors were or who their students were, whether you'd like to or not. Lawyers cannot change that after the fact, as hard as they might try. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] ATA vs. WTF Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:23:44 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Divetony, This has been discussed in depth on this list. The instructor is the most important thing with organizations being a support role - at least in my estimation. In regards to ATA, I am not a big fan of them. http://www.martialartsresource.com/korean/korframe.htm and look for the search option. Best of fortune, Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:23:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] OT - Ivan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, we made it. I tell ya, it was rough but we survived with no damage to our home, any of my family's homes, and very minor damage to our business. Very fortunate. If you've watched the news, we are about 50 miles east of Pensacola so we got hammered but not nearly as bad as they did. The yellow jackets sure are mad - seems they lost their home and they are literally everywhere. Three days without power kinda bites though. Thankfully we have a geothermal air conditioner that I hooked up to the generator so we had air. And it makes hot water so cool home and hot showers made it a little more bearable. Every gas station in town had cars 50-100 deep for gas. Grandmaster West, a sincere thank you for the offer to open your school up for those that wanted to get out of Ivan's path. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:53:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kwan Jangs' self promotion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >The info comes from a 80+ year old TKD grandmaster. >The particulars may be cited in his newest book, but >I have no idea when it will make it to the publisher. >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com Come on, Ray! You didn't even tell us who the GM is! Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:01:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: A question for John Johnson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Chris, >You're absolutely correct that the name of my >Hapkido kwan took it's name from UlJi MoonDuk. If >you look at a map of Seoul you'll also find a large >area of downtown was also named after him. One more >place I have seen his name is the ITF pattern "UlJi". >It's good to see someone out there knows their >Korean history! >John Heh, well, I don't know if I'd say I *know* Korean history, but I've read a couple of books (Sun Yub Paik's "From Pusan to Panmunjom", Don Oberdorfer's "The Two Koreas" and Ki-Baik Lee's "A New History of Korea" and pretty good in my estimation). Actually, one of the other Ph.D. students here at Duquesne is originally from Korea. He was really surprised when I knew the city he was from and where it was (generally) in relation to Seoul. He's from Taegu! It's not like it's some village of huts! lol. My goal is to get my wife to one day actually go on vacation to Korea. She's not too hot on the idea but has acquiesed as long as we make it to Rome and Portugal first :) Hopefully I'll still beyoung enough to drop by the ITF dojang there! BTW, do you have nay plans on going to the ITF World Championships in October? I'd love to hear a first hand report. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Barrie Restall" To: Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:23:45 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sharing Traditions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce, I never doubted you, just thought you might be having a little tease so I teased back. I understand your concerns re Jere's question after your exciting experience with Dojonim Kim. I think there are several ways in which the knowledge gained can contribute to hapkido or MA in general. First there is the perspective you gain from the new experience; it can change your behaviour to others. You already touched on this regarding the usefulness of 'bickering" about who authenticated what. Second you have learned or confirmed that there are higher levels in the stuff we study; you know the characteristics that Dojonim Kim looks for in students so you can direct those you think might benefit from the experience to that source. Without exposing the details of the knowledge. Third, as you have alluded, Dojonim Kim is an excellent role model in MA and life, and if we all adopted some of those characeristics the world would be a better place (honour and integrity). He has shown us how to 'encourage the good out of students'. With these things under the belt our personal contributions to our arts should be enhanced. As you know there are good reasons why he does not want the detail exposed other than by himself and the chosen ones. The natural urge to share the exciting experience with others is very powerful, but a good exercise for the ego to show restraint. You can share the general impressions of Dojonim's Hapkiyusul and the generalities of his curriculum, which may whet the appetite of others. There is also the by product of the anecdotes and documents etc that spark our historical curiosities. When you are back in home base I'd like to discuss this in more depth by e-mail. I am very happy that you had such a great experience. Take care' Kind regards, Barrie Restall --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest