Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 03:01:50 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #398 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1700 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Grip Training and Hapkido (Jye nigma) 2. Re: ATA vs. WTF (silentflute) 3. Black trim (C. Bonner) 4. Lee, Won Kuk and Shotokan's Highest Dan (5th) Level... (Master Arce) 5. RE: ATA vs. WTF (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 6. Question to Master Arce (FRANK CLAY) 7. Kenneth Funakoshi (Robert Hartley) 8. MDK (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 9. RE: Re: A question for John Johnson (John Johnson) 10. Do-Bok Trim (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 11. Training after 40 (Manfred Fischer) 12. (no subject) (John Hancock) 13. Re: MDK (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 07:48:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Grip Training and Hapkido To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I find that doing fingertip push-ups aides in finger techniques...for me, snake fist boxing. When I want to train for grip, such as eagle, tiger claw...I do a few exercises.... 1)strike dirt or sand with a palm strike, then grab the dirt or sand and squeeze it. 2)use a squeeze ball and or meditation balls for dexterity 3)the little hand grib equipment 4)I also practice gripping large objects such as heavy balls the size of basket balls. Now all of that may sound silly but it really does help. I've seen the benefit of gripping large objects when carrying PCs with the grip of a bear...lol. Jye jeffrey kiral wrote: we do fingertip pushups to start out class...i personally do wrist curls, reverse grip wrist curls, reverse curls and some other specialized exercises on my own twice a week...fyi. they help tremedously. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "silentflute" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ATA vs. WTF Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:56:55 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Divetony, If you choose the ATA, you probably have to start over a white belt to get to second Dan. Regards, John ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 8:18 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] ATA vs. WTF > I have taken off from practicing TKD for 3 months, right after my 1st Dan > test (WTF) I moved out of the area. I have trained at WTF schools both times I > trained, 17 years ago and most recently. > While I have an opinion about the WTF, basically what my Masters have told > me, I would like to throw this question out there since I am looking for a new > school and the ATA school is minutes away whereas the WTF school is about 15 > miles from here. > > Is there a major difference in the programs? If so what are they? Which is > the better program to pursue my 2nd Dan, particularly at my age, 44, where > instructing and fitness will probably become more prevelant than competing? > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1700 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "C. Bonner" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:15:58 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Black trim Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net            When i was in collage,  I saw an old film on Judo,  made for the military. This was made before WWII, ( If i remember correctly in the late 20's or early 30's) and they had black trim on their uniforms. Has anyone seen this film or heard of it? Of course it was in black&white, so maybe the trim was just for the film, to show the instructor?   Clint Bonner ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:54:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Master Arce To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Lee, Won Kuk and Shotokan's Highest Dan (5th) Level... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You are RIGHT Master Terry! Sorry about that! I meant *Grand Son, NOT Son! Thanks for catching my mistake! Peace.... :) *Shotokan Karate Do Founder Gichin Funakoshi's Grandson is Kenneth Funakoshi (9th Dan). __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 5 From: PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] ATA vs. WTF Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:12:54 +0100 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net was anyone suprised that in the world of boxing Oscar Dela Hoya got knocked out by a man pushing 40? I WAS! anyway it just goes to show that a dedication to training and looking after your body can take you far. like someone has already said who knows your limits? -----Original Message----- From: Divetony@aol.com [mailto:Divetony@aol.com] Sent: 18 September 2004 14:19 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] ATA vs. WTF I have taken off from practicing TKD for 3 months, right after my 1st Dan test (WTF) I moved out of the area. I have trained at WTF schools both times I trained, 17 years ago and most recently. While I have an opinion about the WTF, basically what my Masters have told me, I would like to throw this question out there since I am looking for a new school and the ATA school is minutes away whereas the WTF school is about 15 miles from here. Is there a major difference in the programs? If so what are they? Which is the better program to pursue my 2nd Dan, particularly at my age, 44, where instructing and fitness will probably become more prevelant than competing? _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1700 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the number given, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 15:21:27 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Question to Master Arce Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Arce, I know that we typically speak about TSD coming from Shotokan; however, a good friend of mine said that our deliver is actually closer to Shudokan, or shito ryu. Opinions? I didn't catch who made the comment, but Funakoshi Sensei held a fifth dan. He was the founder, as Ray said. This is also why Dai Ichi Shotokan only goes up to fifth dan. Kinda puts things in persepctive... and yes I am more than willing to tell them the same thing. Actually, I would like to hear from them why they now use 9th dan. Was it to compete with Korean arts (ie business... making someone feel more like they are advancing, etc..) Frank --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:09:34 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Robert Hartley Subject: [The_Dojang] Kenneth Funakoshi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Kenneth is not the son of the founder, he is a nephew or grandnephew as I recall. He has a dojo here in town. According to an interview done by Kenneth Funakoshi in the mid-1980s, he is a fourth cousin to Gichin Funakoshi. I have the video of that interview- he was a 5th dan at the time. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:25:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] MDK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray If you went to Texas A&M for two years and transferred to LSU and graduated and then become a LSU Professor are you still an Aggie. I don't think so. Even if some or all of what you teach came from the first school. My point is although I agree history can not be changed and who you once trained with is a matter of fact. I think many people that once trained with the Moo Duk Kwan and or Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee still try to say they are MDK when really they have not had a connection in years. People should just say ---I once trained with the MDK instead of claiming to be MDK. Am I wrong, comments JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: A question for John Johnson Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:26:41 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris, Yes, I'll be attending the tournament as a spectator next month. I know the Korea-ITF has been working like crazy for several months to make it a success, so it should be really good. John >From: Christopher Spiller >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: A question for John Johnson >Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:01:17 -0700 (PDT) > > >Chris, > > >You're absolutely correct that the name of my > >Hapkido kwan took it's name from UlJi MoonDuk. If > >you look at a map of Seoul you'll also find a large > >area of downtown was also named after him. One more > >place I have seen his name is the ITF pattern "UlJi". > > >It's good to see someone out there knows their > >Korean history! > > >John > >Heh, well, I don't know if I'd say I *know* Korean >history, but I've read a couple of books (Sun Yub >Paik's "From Pusan to Panmunjom", Don Oberdorfer's >"The Two Koreas" and Ki-Baik Lee's "A New History of >Korea" and pretty good in my estimation). > >Actually, one of the other Ph.D. students here at >Duquesne is originally from Korea. He was really >surprised when I knew the city he was from and where >it was (generally) in relation to Seoul. He's from >Taegu! It's not like it's some village of huts! lol. > >My goal is to get my wife to one day actually go on >vacation to Korea. She's not too hot on the idea but >has acquiesed as long as we make it to Rome and >Portugal first :) Hopefully I'll still beyoung enough >to drop by the ITF dojang there! > >BTW, do you have nay plans on going to the ITF World >Championships in October? I'd love to hear a first >hand report. > >Taekwon, > >Chris > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list,  1700 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:40:10 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Do-Bok Trim Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JH Do you have information as to who was the first to use Do-Bok trim as we know it today around the lapel, cuffs, and bottom trim of the Do-Bok top. I am not talking about belts and colored rank only trim. I know the MDK began using it in the late 1950's and from what I understand Hwang Kee was met with some negativity for doing so. I have researched the ancient dress where it originated, but am wondering about the use by the original five Kwans. I saw a book published by Hwang Kee in 1949 and in all the pictures he is wearing a white belt with no trim. As you know by 1949 he and others where well known as accomplished martial artists JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:50:45 -0400 From: Manfred Fischer To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Training after 40 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Morning fellow Martial artists, I have been reading the digest for some time now and never realy felt qualified enough to respond to the topics written about. I started my journey in the art of Kong Shin Bup under the watchful eye of GM Timmerman at the age of 48. God willing and the the body holds up I am working towards earning my black belt this November. Can it happen after 40, YES! if you want it bad enough. Know you limitations, be dedicated and never say you are too old. With Great Respect, Manfred Fischer DBN --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "John Hancock" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:10:39 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "...my instructor's instructor was Hwang Kee.  That made him MDK, it made me MDK, it makes my "Korean Karate" students MDK." Wrong.  If they left the MDK...and if you ARE Taekwondo...THEY DID...then he abdicated his membership in the MDK.  Obviously he changed the curriculum or went with a curriculum change ergo...what you got taught was NOT the MDK curriculum.  Therefore...you are not the MDK...nor did you learn MDK style...whether you keep and teach the tenents the MDK adopted and propogated (which hardly would make you MDK on that basis alone) or not.  OK...try this:  I went to Western Kentucky University where I obtained my degree.  Am I an alumni?  Yes.  Am I representative of WKU.  No...not hardly.  While I was there I had a professor who obtained his Ph.D. from the University of Chicago.  I he a alumni of that school?  Yes.  Is he a representative of it?  No.  He works for WKU...and he is a representative of WKU.  No one is saying you DON'T have a LINEAGE connection to the MDK....I'm just saying YOU AREN'T MDK...and for the life of me...I can't figure out why it would be so important to you to tell people you ARE, unless you are just trying to impress them because of the MDK reputation (which you aren't entitled to).  Frankly....since the change over to SBD...the MDK reputation ain't so great anymore.   It is either that....or just plain obstinancy against suffering the change.  You can tell yourself all day long that you are MDK...but it won't ever actually be (unless of course you want to give up everything you are doing now...put on a white belt...and start  paying Hwang Hyun Chul some fees). I personally don't see a need to use the name MDK...and I DID train at the MDK in Seoul, Korea.  But that was then...this is now....and I don't need to prop up my reputation by dropping somebody else's name or hanging it on my shingle. JH   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] MDK To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If you went to Texas A&M for two years and transferred to LSU and graduated > and then become a LSU Professor are you still an Aggie. I don't think so. Maybe. Not sure. Not really the same tho. However if I did graduate from A&M and later went to LSU then for sure I would still be an Aggie, that cannot be changed. > have not had a connection in years. People should just say ---I once trained > with the MDK instead of claiming to be MDK. Lineage can make one MDK even if they aren't a dues paying member of some later-day organization calling itself SBD MDK. Those that are dues paying members are probably MDK as well as a member of the MDK. Being MDK and being a member of the MDK are not necessarily the same. I do not believe I have any paper certificate with the words Moo Duk Kwan on it. But neither do I have any paper certificate saying who my grandfather was. Paper isn't what it is all about, neither should it be IMHO. Now keep in mind that the kwan system didn't start out this way in Korea. A kwan was and really still is just -a- school, not an organization. Not sure when the lawyers got involved and turned things into money oriented organizations. But what did occur in Korea through the the 1950s and 60s was that the kwans, esp the original Korean Karate kwans turned into more of a family thing. Perhaps a type of fraternity. If someone was a member of your kwan's lineage they were your brother, you were to help them out if you could. The Kukkiwon and the S.Korean gov tried to kill off this kwan-family feeling by first doing away with the kwan names and giving them all numbers. Then later saying the kwans did not exist anymore. This official stance lasted for years, but the kwan brotherhood was too strong. People never forgot (save perhaps for John H. :) where they came from. Thus we see the kwan system is now revived again in Korea. The Korea TKD MDK Assoc is alive and doing very well. I believe the CDK has a active group in Korea. Not sure about some of the others. This is why I was received well in Korea and New Jersey at the various MDK locations I visited. The kwan brotherhood was stronger than the political overtones. I sincerely hope the lawyers don't change that for us... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest