Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 09:42:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #426 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1700 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Craig Stovall........uniform (George Peters) 2. RE: Tommy Carruthers (john.a.mcintosh@bt.com) 3. RE: Hand Speed Clips (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 4. Re:Right Brain/Left Brain ? (luke rose) 5. uniforms (FRANK CLAY) 6. Old VS New (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 7. Korean Studies Position (Ray Terry) 8. RE: Old VS New (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 9. RE: Old VS New (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 00:28:59 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Craig Stovall........uniform Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, Ordinarily I would not deign to bandy words with anyone who seems to argue for the sake of arguement, however in your case I shall make an exception. You have indicated to the obvious that you have no connection with a "traditional" art.(that means doing things the way the founder seemingly intended) Not that this is wrong, but you do not seem to grasp the difference from that which is traditionally modern and that which is simply traditional. Your inadept analogy between doing PT in a "T" shirt and and doing class in a do bahk made my head hurt. Being in class to me is the same as being part of an honor guard wearing class A's and doing PT in a "T" shirt is the same as working out with my buddies in my off time. In class, I represent the finest in what I can humanly bring to my art, the same as one's class A's might represent the finest his/her branch of the service has to offer the world. Your use of the term "warrior" is a travesty. There is a great difference between a soldier and a warrior. I was taught that a soldier and a warrior might have similar skills, but a soldier is subject to orders from superiors to govern his actions, while a warrior is held to a far higher degree of accountability in having to do a job, but is also shouldered with the responsibilities to do what is morally right no matter what the cost. In short, the warrior has to choose between right and wrong, a soldier follows orders. This is not meant to say that our military personel do not do wonderful things above and beyond the call of duty, ascending to the level of "warrior". This happens every day in countless acts of bravery, kindness and compassion,whether we hear about it on the evening news or not. Anyway, the differences between the two are as great as the similarities are between them, and I do not feel we should use these words interchangeably. In closing, I do not write this because I have any dislike for you, quite to the contrary, your style has given me many chuckles late at night reading the postings and you have made many laudable points. But not this time. Respectfully, George "I'll bet I'll be hearing back from Craig for a monkey stomping" Peters _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:44:14 +0100 From: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Tommy Carruthers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "The guy in question is Tommy Carruthers. I don't know too much about him except that he's a Jeet Kune Do guy that lives somewhere across the pond...Ireland or Scotland if I'm not mistaken." Tommy Carruthers is from Glasgow in Scotland. I know that he is well respected in the Jeet Kune Do field but have never seen him in action. I have tried to check out his training a few times, but every time I tried his club had moved location. When I track down his new location I'll try again. John Mc Intosh --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:32:40 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hand Speed Clips Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks to everyone for your replies about this JKD guy and his slapping motions while striking. I had no idea why he did that. Thanks for clearing it up. James Morgan GTKDA --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 05:55:47 -0700 (PDT) From: luke rose To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Right Brain/Left Brain ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Ray, Very tough. I was able to do it, but it wasn't exactly my perfect 6. I had to mostly focus on my foot going around a ball. Then slowly draw the 6. It took me quite sometime to do it, and I still couldn't do most of the time. I got a lot of good laughs in the process. Thanks for the challenge! Luke --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 07:58:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] uniforms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kai, You siad: <> You might want to note that the most elite units for both military and quasi-military organizations do not wear uniforms typically. Cases in point: Special Response teams do not typically wear a recognizeable police uniform, detectives do not wear uniforms, DELTA does not wear uniforms typically, other special ops and SF units may or may not wear a uniform. The uniform for both groups is determined by mission needs and parameters. What we are missing here, is that the uniform did not provide the training, but that the individual donning that uniform received certain qualifying training. No uniform is going to somehow cause a metamorphasis. It just won't happen. You are either going to choose to be a certain way or thing, or you will choose not to be. Its that simple. Uniforms are merely a decoration afforded by certain positions. f. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:57:01 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Old VS New Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I recently traveled around the area where I live and visited a few other schools, and attended a few open style tournaments. I have to say I was disappointed in most of them I saw. I remember the days 20 or so years ago, when the Do-Jang was a place of serious training. I walked into several schools where kids ran around like it was a day care, the adults where standing around talking about football the night before and yes some wore what I considered ridicules uniforms if you can call them that because no one in the class was uniform at all. Parents sat and watched class and talked out loud. The instructor sometimes making comments to the onlookers. I came up as a child training under a very strict Korean instructor that insisted when you walked in the Do-Jang. You bowed and then sat down to stretch, meditate, or review some area of training, NOT to talk like it was a social club. When class started parents where not even allowed to watch except at special events, and during training everyone had to tow the line or it was hell to pay. I see some improvement from the old ways, we now have better training equipment for example. I remember using old antifreeze jugs as kicking targets instead of centuries array of new practice targets. However, I feel commercialism is killing the arts. It seems the military or martial aspects of training are gone in a lot of schools today, and here is the kicker. The schools with little discipline and fun curriculums are charging the most money and people are paying it. The instructors that hold true to the martial arts principals and teach hard and sometimes unforgiving classes are not charging as much and have fewer students. Money seems to be the root of the problem. Well that and laziness. This leads me to believe that the general public has a false idea of what real martial arts training is. It also leads me to believe that only a few want to learn it anyway. The commercialized schools had little if any student instructor relationship. I heard one dan at a school call his instructor by his first name. That would have got you knocked out in the school I came up in. Not by the instructor but by the other senior students, The instructors was to be respected as was the seniors in the class. The two different training environments in my opinion both had students that could demonstrate basic techniques with some proficiency. The difference is in there demonstration of respect for the art they study, and the metal training. I believe the strong disciplined training environment better prepares the students for real combat under pressure. The students training for what seems to be recreation can go to a demonstration and wow the crowd but in real combat could not fight out of a wet paper sack. Comments Please JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Studies Position Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... The Search Committee wishes to announce that we will be begin reading applications on October 31, 2004 and continue until the position is filled. KOREAN STUDIES The University of Pennsylvania announces a search for a faculty position in Korean Studies (at the rank of assistant, associate, or full professor) to begin July 2005. The position is open to Korean specialists in any discipline, but preference will be given for the following fields: anthropology, film, gender studies, and cultural studies. The successful applicant will be involved in helping to develop Korean Studies program at Penn, working in concert with the Center for Korean Studies, the Center for East Asian Studies, and the Korean language Program. There are currently over 100 students of Korean language; there is a Korean minor in the Department of Asian and Middle Eastern Studies and plans for a major as well. Requirements for the position include a completed doctoral degree with specialization in Korean Studies, native or near-native fluency in Korean language, significant publications in Korean related fields, and excellent teaching credentials. A successful candidate will be expected to devote his or her teaching and research activities to subjects related to Korean Studies Applicants should send cover letter, CV, teaching evaluations, and relevant publications to the address below. Candidates for an assistant professorship should also send three (3) letters of recommendation. Korean Studies Search Office of the Dean School of Arts and Sciences 116 College Hall University of Pennsylvania, PA 19104-6377 The University of Pennsylvania is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action employer. G. Cameron Hurst III Professor, Japanese and Korean Studies Director, Center for East Asian Studies --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Old VS New Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 17:42:38 +0100 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have not been training for as long as you but a have seen Dojangs were there is alot of talk and no action. the dojang is not a social club although some people will see it that way. even at my dojang there can be alot of talk. without wanting to offend anyone some students will have to keep their focus even if there are alot of distractions around them. I still go and visit my friend in the Thai boxing gym. this helps keep my fighting skills in check. taekwon -----Original Message----- From: Gladewater SooBahkDo [mailto:gladewatersoobahkdo@msn.com] Sent: 07 October 2004 14:57 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Old VS New I recently traveled around the area where I live and visited a few other schools, and attended a few open style tournaments. I have to say I was disappointed in most of them I saw. I remember the days 20 or so years ago, when the Do-Jang was a place of serious training. I walked into several schools where kids ran around like it was a day care, the adults where standing around talking about football the night before and yes some wore what I considered ridicules uniforms if you can call them that because no one in the class was uniform at all. Parents sat and watched class and talked out loud. The instructor sometimes making comments to the onlookers. I came up as a child training under a very strict Korean instructor that insisted when you walked in the Do-Jang. You bowed and then sat down to stretch, meditate, or review some area of training, NOT to talk like it was a social club. When class started parents where not even allowed to watch except at special events, and during training everyone had to tow the line or it was hell to pay. I see some improvement from the old ways, we now have better training equipment for example. I remember using old antifreeze jugs as kicking targets instead of centuries array of new practice targets. However, I feel commercialism is killing the arts. It seems the military or martial aspects of training are gone in a lot of schools today, and here is the kicker. The schools with little discipline and fun curriculums are charging the most money and people are paying it. The instructors that hold true to the martial arts principals and teach hard and sometimes unforgiving classes are not charging as much and have fewer students. Money seems to be the root of the problem. Well that and laziness. This leads me to believe that the general public has a false idea of what real martial arts training is. It also leads me to believe that only a few want to learn it anyway. The commercialized schools had little if any student instructor relationship. I heard one dan at a school call his instructor by his first name. That would have got you knocked out in the school I came up in. Not by the instructor but by the other senior students, The instructors was to be respected as was the seniors in the class. The two different training environments in my opinion both had students that could demonstrate basic techniques with some proficiency. The difference is in there demonstration of respect for the art they study, and the metal training. I believe the strong disciplined training environment better prepares the students for real combat under pressure. The students training for what seems to be recreation can go to a demonstration and wow the crowd but in real combat could not fight out of a wet paper sack. Comments Please JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1700 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Old VS New Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:28:37 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi >I recently traveled around the area where I live and visited a few other >schools, and attended a few open style tournaments. I have to say I was >disappointed in most of them I saw. >I remember the days 20 or so years ago, when the Do-Jang was a place of >serious training. My training goes back about 42 years plus, I am rather lucky that I get to travel quite a bit and have the opportunity to observe the training of others both here in the US and in other countries and teach seminars in those locations. > I walked into several schools where kids ran around like it >was a day care, the adults where standing around talking about football the >night before and yes some wore what I considered ridicules uniforms if you can >call them that because no one in the class was uniform at all. Parents sat >and watched class and talked out loud. The instructor sometimes making >comments to the onlookers. I have seen such schools and I would guess we may share some similar thoughts about the schools. >I came up as a child training under a very strict Korean instructor that >insisted when you walked in the Do-Jang. You bowed and then sat down to >stretch, meditate, or review some area of training, NOT to talk like it was a >social club. When class started parents where not even allowed to watch except >at special events, and during training everyone had to tow the line or it was >hell to pay. Yes, they were rather formal and strict. But I never was in a class where observers were not permitted. > >I see some improvement from the old ways, we now have better training >equipment for example. I remember using old antifreeze jugs as kicking targets >instead of centuries array of new practice targets. Yep, or a tennis ball on a string was a good one as well, we even used pieces of cardboard as kicking targets. But the heavy bag was the mainstay of our kicking practice. >However, I feel commercialism is killing the arts. It seems the military or >martial aspects of training are gone in a lot of schools today, I would argue that tournaments and the sport aspect, yes the Olympic style is more to blame than the commercial aspect. I have an article on my web site that addresses in part how I believe the sport or physical education aspect of the martial arts was brought into the martial arts. If you have an interest you can go to http://www.ao-denkou-kai.org/new_page_6.htm it's an article on the impact of a Prof. who taught Kano Jigoro at Tokyo University and how he may have impacted the development of Judo and Kendo. >and here is the kicker. >The schools with little discipline and fun curriculums are >charging the most money and people are paying it. The instructors that hold >true to the martial arts principals and teach hard and sometimes unforgiving >classes are not charging as much and have fewer students. Money seems to be >the root of the problem. Well that and laziness. Money can be and often is the root of the problem in the martial arts. But even back 200 or more years ago professionals were hired to teach martial arts. Ueshiba paid Takeda for each technique he was taught - so the commercial aspect is not the only element for the changes in curriculum. I remember back in the 70's asking one of my TKD instructors why we were not practicing throws and defense after being thrown, self defense from sitting on the ground as we had before. His response was that he was afraid of students being injured and the subsequent litigation as well as the fact that he did not think that as Americans we really needed to learn to that type of thing because we sat in chairs, not on the floor. Personally I disagreed with him and some of us continued to practice those techniques on our own time. > >This leads me to believe that the general public has a false idea of what real >martial arts training is. It also leads me to believe that only a few want to >learn it anyway. I think this has always been the case. Just look at the opinion of Funakoshi after Karate had been taught in Japan for a while. The sport aspect of TKD/Karate has altered the basic curriculum of classes and the techniques taught in the classes. Techniques are developed for tournaments and these techniques and strategies may not be street effective. Techniques and strategies that are street effective are most likely against the "rules" in tournaments. > The commercialized schools had little if any student >instructor relationship. I heard one dan at a school call his instructor by >his first name. That would have got you knocked out in the school I came up >in. Not by the instructor but by the other senior students, The instructors >was to be respected as was the seniors in the class. Here I feel like John Kerry (I agree with you and at the same time disagree with you) :-) Personally I don't mind if a student uses my first name in a class or seminar setting. If they want to call me Sensei, Sabomnim, Shifu, Prof., Mr., or any other "title" that's fine. At the bottom line of this is the respect that is shown to any instructor. And here is where I get to my gripe - I don't want someone to use a title or honorific as a parrot would mouth a name. A few years back I was teaching a seminar and my host was a 4th dan who required his students to call him "master" - which gave me a bit of a chuckle. So, on the floor we were talking and he was calling me Rick (which was fine with me) a student came up and called him Mr. and not Master - well that was the start of a 10 minute rant on how that student did not respect him and how he deserved to be called "master" as a 4th dan with all his years of training in the martial arts. It was all I could do not to laugh as he was blowing his own horn, some of my students who were with me could hardly keep a straight face. What was lacking in this situation was respect and it was a two way street. The instructor did not respect the students and the student did not respect the instructor. >The two different training environments in my opinion both had students that >could demonstrate basic techniques with some proficiency. The difference is >in there demonstration of respect for the art they study, and the metal >training. I believe the strong disciplined training environment better >prepares the students for real combat under pressure. The students training >for what seems to be recreation can go to a demonstration and wow the crowd >but in real combat could not fight out of a wet paper sack. Back to one of my first comments - I get to travel around and see a lot of different people and their skills, abilities, etc. What I have found is that those with open minds who are willing to learn tend to be better martial artists no matter what the training environment they come from. For the most part the students who attend the seminars I teach are serious students of the martial arts and have developed their skills to a level appropriate to their rank and in many cases I feel that they are under ranked in comparison to others I have seen around the world. Oh well . . . . . . > >Comments Please Please will you open a can of worms for me to stick my foot in my mouth once again? :-) Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest