Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 03:01:51 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #427 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1700 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Old VS New (Ray Terry) 2. RE: Old VS New (Rick Clark) 3. RE: Craig Stovall........uniform (Stovall, Craig) 4. Old VS New (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 5. position at U of M (Ray Terry) 6. Re: Sword Personalities (Bruce Sims) 7. RE: Old vs New (Stovall, Craig) 8. Re: RE: Old vs New (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Old VS New To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net While I have not researched this extensively, or even non-extensively, it seems that there were a lot of TV/movie scripts floating around circa mid-80s thru the mid-90s that featured kids as martial arts experts. e.g. the Sidekicks TV series with a little Ernie Reyes, Jr., the TMNT movies, etc. That perhaps contributed to US dojang kwanjang's focus on the youth market, as it seems to have exploded around then. Yes? No? Back in the 70s you saw very very few kids in the martial arts. More in the 80s. By the time the 90s rolled around it seemed that there were 9+ kids in the school to every one adult, and that one adult was probably a parent of one of the kids in class. Training in the arts can be beneficial to children, esp when done correctly. But it also seems to have dumbed down the dojang/dojo. Keeping a kid interested in class (and coming back next month) instead of strenuous 'traditional' training was king. Nothing wrong with change. Hwang Kee's (and others) method of smacking students with a staff needed to be replaced with more effective teaching methods, but sometimes change goes too far. imho Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Old VS New Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:01:44 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, >While I have not researched this extensively, or even non-extensively, it >seems that there were a lot of TV/movie scripts floating around circa >mid-80s thru the mid-90s that featured kids as martial arts experts. e.g. >the Sidekicks TV series with a little Ernie Reyes, Jr., the TMNT movies, etc. >That perhaps contributed to US dojang kwanjang's focus on the youth market, >as it seems to have exploded around then. Yes? No? Yep along with the fact that I believe that many instructors came to the conclusion that teaching kids was the only way to keep a school open. Parents would pay for their kids to take classes but if money were tight they would not take classes themselves. Plus you would have found instructors trying to get families involved in classes to increase their number. > >Back in the 70s you saw very very few kids in the martial arts. More in >the 80s. By the time the 90s rolled around it seemed that there were 9+ kids >in the school to every one adult, and that one adult was probably a parent >of one of the kids in class. There were even fewer kids in the martial arts in the 60's than the 70's. I had to beg to be accepted into a Judo class, they did not want a kid. For the first month all I did was take falls 3 times a week 1.5 hrs at a time. Then I was allowed to be thrown by the other students and it was not till later I was even allowed to try a throw. I think they were trying to see if I would quit or perhaps run me out of the club. I was (and am still) hardheaded and would not quit. > >Training in the arts can be beneficial to children, esp when done correctly. >But it also seems to have dumbed down the dojang/dojo. Keeping a kid >interested in class (and coming back next month) instead of strenuous >'traditional' training was king. Yep - but when you have to pay bills for rental, electricity, insurance, etc. you have to have the students paying each month. Nothing wrong with teaching kids - after all the kids of today are going to be the 9th and 10th dan of tomorrow. Without them the arts would die off. > >Nothing wrong with change. Hwang Kee's (and others) method of smacking >students with a staff needed to be replaced with more effective teaching >methods, but sometimes change goes too far. :-) a smack with a stick did get your attention quick . . . . . . . . Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:05:47 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Craig Stovall........uniform Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Hey!!! Don't go badmouthing my hobbies...LOL!!! <<>> I guess it depends upon what you mean by "connection". I have a VERY extensive background in what I and others would refer to as "traditional TKD". My second dan was tested and awarded by the particular Kwan's founder (way back in 1991). I could perform all techniques and hyungs up to the strictest technical standards as established by those that came before me. I have also been fortunate enough to have trained in several other arts. For example, for some time I pursued knowledge in Pentjak Silat Bukti Negara, and made it a point to practice the art (particularly the langkas and djurus) exactly as they were shown to me by Paul de Thouars and his senior students. So, I have some inkling of what is involved in following the curriculum, traditions, and cultural norms of others. Am I currently a "traditional" martial artist? That depends upon your definition. I believe I share much with TMA's in the sense that I practice martial arts in order to better myself. If traditional means "just doing things the way the founder intended"...well, I believe God gave me a brain for a reason. To each his own. <<>> Not sure what you're talking about. <<< Your inadept analogy between doing PT in a "T" shirt and and doing class in a do bahk made my head hurt.>>> See above. I don't recall making that analogy. And I doubt it made your head hurt. <<>> That's great! Personally, I feel that I can be the best that I can be regardless of my appearance or what I'm wearing. I'm just as good and dedicated a worker on "blue jean Friday" as I am bright and early on Monday morning. Putting on a uniform doesn't increase my knowledge, improve my conditioning, or amplify the seriousness with which I approach my study. Excellence comes from within, not from without. For what it's worth, I wear a "uniform" 90% of the time that I train with my partners. It's a plain, heavy cotton, white gi cut specifically for jiu-jitsu. I wear it because it's functional, it's comfortable, it's durable, and I can practice a wide variety of technical material while wearing it. I do NOT wear it because it is mandated by tradition, or because I need an image to feel good about what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. I believe this is why most martial artists began wearing uniforms in the first place. Functionality and practicality. Evidently, others do not share this opinion. Cool!!! <<>> Let's be reasonable. There's precious little that I or anyone else can say that could be considered a "travesty". We live in a world where innocent people are beheaded and the video posted on the internet. <<>> My definition of a warrior is very simple. A warrior is someone who fights for something that they perceive to be greater than themselves. This "something" could be a nation, a tribe, a family, an idea, a cause, etc. That's MY definition. It's also the reason that I take exception when I see prize fighters or football players refer to themselves as "warriors". They might be a fighter...but not a warrior...per MY definition. I'm not really sure what we're disagreeing on here. <<>> Then I guess it's a good thing that the word "soldier" never came up in my recent post. Some warriors are soldiers, but not all soldiers are warriors. There are civilian warriors, and non-civilian warriors. What's the point? <<>> Hey, what's the saying? "If we're all thinking alike...then some of us are not thinking." Not a problem. <<>> Hey, don't be copying my signature tags! Craig "I've Never Stomped a Monkey and I Ain't Starting Now" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:05:04 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Old VS New Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir: It seems we agree about most of what has been said. Even on the areas you aluded to about titles, and commercialism. As I read your post, I was reminded there are exceptions to everything. For Example: I do not require my students to call me anything, However they call me Sa Bom Nim. If one should one day call me by my first name I would simply remind them that they should address ANY senior by there appropreate title. There should simply be respect shown to the senior members by the juniors. I can't imagine going up to the late Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim and saying "Hey hows it hangin". On the other side of that you are correct that respect has to go both ways. I always return the bow to my juniors, and when they reach a certian level and have earned a title. I too will address them as such. I have instructors at my Do-Jang, and although they are many years my junior I address they as Name Kyo Sa, or Name Jo Kyo. I believe you have to give respect in order to recieve it. As for commercialism. I understand what you said in your post. I have no problem with students paying for there instruction. My problem comes when instructors start to see students as dollars signs instead of students. I teach the art I study to the best of my ability. If a student or potential student does not like what I am teaching, I respectfully tell them I can't help them and give them the name of other do-jangs in the area. My point is that some instructors will compremize the art they teach in order to sign up a new student/new $$$. This grows large schools, but the martial art they study is weakened by the method of getting and excepting students. Instructors become sales people rather than instructors. JCGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] position at U of M Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fowarding... University of Michigan - Tenure-track position in KOREAN HUMANITIES The Department of Asian Languages and Cultures at the University of Michigan invites applications for a tenure-track position in KOREAN HUMANITIES, beginning in September 2005. Appointment is possible at any rank. Applicants from wide variety of periods and fields within Korean Humanities will be considered, including literature, cultural studies, visual arts, history, and religious studies. All applicants should possess a high level of proficiency in Korean as well as the ability to teach undergraduate courses on both historical and contemporary periods. The successful candidate is expected to teach a range of courses in Korean Studies from introductory undergraduate lecture courses through graduate seminars in areas of research interest; to supervise doctoral dissertations; and to participate actively in the programs of the departments as well as in area studies initiatives within a larger university community that encourages interdisciplinary efforts. Of special interest are candidates who share a commitment to historically-grounded scholarship that is both rigorous and original and who are drawn to the intellectual opportunities afforded by programs of significant contextual depth. Evidence of outstanding teaching ability and of promise in research is essential. The Ph.D. is expected to have been completed prior to appointment. Each application should consist of a cover letter (describing the applicants scholarly work, teaching, and research plans), a full CV, research statement, representative publications or a writing sample, and at least three letters of recommendation. Please send applications to Korean Humanities Search, Department of Asian Languages and Cultures, 3070 Frieze Building, The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1285. Review of applications begins November 29, 2004. Applications must be received by December 10, 2004 to be assured of consideration. The University of Michigan is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Women and members of minority groups are especially encouraged to apply. The University is supportive of the needs of dual career couples. All applications will be acknowledged. Contact Info: Korean Humanities Search, Department of Asian Languages and Cultures, 3070 Frieze Building, The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1285. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 14:35:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sword Personalities Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray, Anthony, sword people in Gneral and HDGD people in particular: I am listing out a number of names of various personalities and the place from which I first heard their names. One way or another they all relate to Korean sword (of one type or another. If anyone recognizes the individual or a name they are familiar with thin a particular context would you please share your information? a.) Jang Hak Seo: Organized the World Kumdo Assn and the Choson Se-Bup Assn. Formerly the VP of the International Kendo Fed, and one of the 6 original founding members of the Korean Kumdo Assn. Written up in TKD TIMES; Sept 1998. b.) GM Roh, Tae-rae, 8th dan and originator of Dobbob Gumdo & c.) GM Lee, Young-sik, 9th dan and originator of Dobbob Gumdo & d.) Chung, Do-young, 7th dan, Dobbob Gumdo ; all found on website: http://myhome.netsgo.com/dobbob e.) Yeong Wook Kang, & Han Il Na both identified as officers in the Korean Hae-Dong Kumdo Assn. Written up in WORLD OF MARTIAL ARTS; March/April 1996 f.) Masters Kwon, Kim, Park and Lee associated with the World HD GD Federation through a seminar presented in Chicago June, 2000 and written up in DOCHANG DIGEST Vol 7, #377, 378, 379. I¡¯m looking for any information about any of these gentlemen or their affiliations or backgrounds. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 17:18:19 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Old vs New Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, I kind of understand where you are coming from. My first school was a bit rough even by those days' standards. We worked out on a tile floor. For months the floor would rub my feet raw, but they finally became conditioned to the point of being able to take it. Practicing throws on tile was a lot of fun. It was a very small club, so the instructor couldn't afford to run the air conditioning in the summer. Ever been to the Arkansas delta in July? Nice. The entire training was nothing but basics. Get in the horse and reverse punch...forever. Walk the front stance...now add the low block...now add the high block...now add the lunge punch...get back in the horse. When you were called to attention you were expected to be as still as a statue. If anybody moved then EVERYBODY paid. Pushups, pushups, pushups. Practiced the forms over and over and over. If someone forgot a move...pay up darlings! Pushups, pushups, pushups. If everyone didn't finish the form at the same time...hit the deck. Don't get me started on the kicks. And your technique could NEVER have enough power. If your downward x-block was so fast and powerful that the displaced air in front of your arms hit the floor and cracked the tiles...still weak! More power!!! Oh, and a kiap after every technique, please. And if someone moved out of position to wipe the sweat out of their eyes...pushups! The sparring? Fat lips, black eyes, sore ribs, chipped teeth...good family fun. Pads for the feet and boxing gloves was about it. I can't imagine why we never had more than 10 people enrolled at one time. Think of all the fun those folks missed out on. Wussies! Ah, those were the good old days (so sayeth the psycho). Did I get something out of that training? Yes...physical and mental tempering I suppose. It ain't for everybody, but if you've been through it then you know there's a certain...what do the French call it..."I don't know what" that you take away from the experience. I do know this much. I wanted to be a Black Belt so badly that if they told me that I had to eat broken glass and wash it down with Windex I'd have been like, "You got some hot sauce to go with that glass, sir?". Heck, I can remember just wanting to be a yellow belt. Working so hard to get rid of that infernal white belt. Ah, silly teenager. People don't care today. "How soon can Billy test for his black belt?". That's what the parents ask in week three. Back in the day, you didn't ask if you could test. Well, you could ask but your arms might green up and fall off from all the pushups they made you do for DARING such an impropriety. Oh well...enough nostalgia. Are things better or worse today? I dunno. Let's just say they're different. Craig "Getting All Misty Eyed" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Old vs New To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ah, those were the good old days (so sayeth the psycho). Whoops. I was just getting ready to say that... and then I scrolled down to see this starting off a new paragraph. :) Ray "call me psycho" Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest