Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 03:01:50 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #428 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1700 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: uniforms (Kai Jade) 2. School in San Antonio (Chris Holmes) 3. Old school training. (Chris Holmes) 4. Re: Uniforms and Traditions from another point of view (Bruce Sims) 5. Korean sword personalities (A. Boyd) 6. Re: Old school training. (Ray Terry) 7. Schools in San Antonio (Ray Terry) 8. RE: Old school training. (Christy Cory) 9. Re: Old school training. (jeffrey kiral) 10. The Good old Days (Gladewater SooBahkDo) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Kai Jade" To: Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 11:45:52 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: uniforms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Message: 5 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 07:58:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] uniforms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kai, You siad: <> You might want to note that the most elite units for both military and quasi-military organizations do not wear uniforms typically. Cases in point: Special Response teams do not typically wear a recognizeable police uniform, detectives do not wear uniforms, DELTA does not wear uniforms typically, other special ops and SF units may or may not wear a uniform. The uniform for both groups is determined by mission needs and parameters. What we are missing here, is that the uniform did not provide the training, but that the individual donning that uniform received certain qualifying training. No uniform is going to somehow cause a metamorphasis. It just won't happen. You are either going to choose to be a certain way or thing, or you will choose not to be. Its that simple. Uniforms are merely a decoration afforded by certain positions. f. Granted, but I never said uniforms were necessary, nor used by all. What I said was that when they DO wear them, these people must feel a connection to the true nature of their duty/beliefs. However, you seem to believe "Uniforms are merely a decoration afforded by certain positions." I respect your opinion on it. There must be many warriors, soldiers, LEOs, and martial artists out there who see uniforms in the same light. I guess the important thing is that those who don't feel any differently when they are training in a dobok, understand that many of us who wear dobok (traditional; fancy and garish; or just plain,simple and threadbare), view them as a "portable dojang" ;) Thank you for your thoughts. Peace Kai Jade --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 23:31:30 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] School in San Antonio Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There is a guy named Jesse Elder that teaches somewhere in San Antonio. He has a good comercial kids program and I would imagine that his adults program is good as well. Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeŽ Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 23:50:24 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Old school training. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wanted to share my thoughts on old school type training. I came up in an old school dojang. My introduction to Tang Soo Do was getting to spare on the very first night of class. One of my P. E. students from the high school was my opponent. I remember a right leg hook kick catching the right side of my face and the same right leg nailing me on the left temple with a roundhouse kick before it touched the ground. I don't remember much else. Things I do remember.... the new faces 8 out of every 10 students would drop out, often very quickly. Kids and adults with ZERO self confidence were completely intimidated and would either not come back or drop out like flies. Those of us that were left fell into several categories, bullies, masochist, or people too dumb to quit. I fall somewhere in the last two. Now don't get me wrong, it made me tough, it taught me perserverence, and I learned to take a punch or kick. The problem I have now as an instructor is that the ones who could benefit the most from martial arts often never come or if they do can't stick it out. I see one of my jobs as an instructor is to get these kids in and be able to keep them long enough so that they can get some benefit from martial arts. I try to build their confidence and skill before allowing them to spar. My retention rate is around 85% my first instructor's was around 20%. He is a great guy and a good martial artist but the old school mentality doesn't work for most of the kids today. I just now have some higher ranking students and I'm pushing them, mentally and physically but they would'nt have made it it I had started them off in the old school manner. With regards to the hard core guys.... they have their place, and in my opinion they don't need to make more money or attract more kids because the kids they tend to attract are often bullies. The world has enough bullies without martial arts instructors making them more effective. If these instructors want to benefit their martial arts and their community they need to learn to teach most kids and when they have instilled the right amount of skill, knowledge, self discipline, and self control, then and only then should they be training these kids as hard core warriors. I guess my key point here is that we need to build our students up before we beat them down... :) Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 04:49:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Uniforms and Traditions from another point of view Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: Now and again I get a call or an e-mail from someone who states that "I want to join your kwan"(sic). I got to thinking about this in terms of the recent discussion about the uniforms and traditions of the KMA and think there might be something to think about here. First off, unlike many of the modern organizations, one doesn't simply "join" a kwan. Its not like one pays their money, gets a membership card and now they are a member. Westerners often times have a problem with this just like they many times have a problem with the Japanese Ryu-ha system. Secondly, taking a new person into a kwan means having to work around that person until they get up to speed with how things are done and why. This isn't an elitist approach. People simply bring baggage into a kwan from past experiences and the challenge is to learn to do things the way that the kwan does them. By definition members have identified the new member as sharing the same goals and aspirations of kwan members, but there is still that learning curve to get through. Thirdly, its not MY kwan. I'm a member just like everyone else and I am protective of the kwan and the fraternity that it promotes regarding how things are done. Now, what does this have to do with traditions and uniforms? Well, as people have pointed out putting on a uniform or blabbing about traditions does not automatically mean that a person has absorbed the values the uniform or traditions represent into their lives. Secondly, even if a person DOES want to manage their lives according to the values represented by those traditions and uniforms it is not an over-night change. Learning to conduct ones' life according to the values of a martial tradition---- especially one of another culture---- is a lifetime challenge. Lastly, these is not MY traditions. I feel strongly about them, and advocate for them. I research them and educate about them. They are, however, in the public domain and people are going to do with them as they will. My position is that for people who want to generalize about them thats fine. Just know that for all the people who want to take THAT position, there is an old stick-in-mud who takes a more conservative approach. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:10:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean sword personalities Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, When I read your subject line I was worried that your jingum had begun to whisper to you in the stillness of morning practice... You have pretty much already listed the information you were asking to receive. I'm not sure what I can really add here... So far it seems that everyone on your list is affiliated with themselves. The Dobbub people have assembled a curriculum based kendo and basic forms from Haidong Gumdo. By all accounts the art is mostly kendo, although in recent years, people leaving the Hanguk Haedong Kumdo Federation after the death of Master Kang were reported to have joined with this group. I have yet to see one of their dojang so I can't comment on how they have changed. I last met a student of the art (formerly known as Haidong Dobbub) in 1999. Kang Yeong Wook was responsible for codifying and expanding the curriculum of the Hanguk Haedong Kumdo Federation once he, Na Han Il and those loyal to them decided to split more or less without animosity from the parent group. Kang Yeong Wook is the author of the Haedong Kumdo Kyo Bone (text) which detailed the curriculum as they knew it plus other elements. Master Kang was the driving force behind training in this Federation and after his death there seems to have been a loss of direction, with members returning to the parent Federation or joining/starting other groups. Na Han Il is the most famous practioner of HDGD in Korea and is likely the single person most responsible for it earning name recognition here, due to his fame as an entertainer. He is not currently active as an actor, where he accrued his fame. He serves as the titular head of the Hanguk Haedong Gumdo Federation although other officers handle the duties of President, etc. A person to add to your list is Kim Jeong Ho, the primary organizer of the HDGD curriculum. He serves as the Daehan/World Haidong Gumdo Federation President and is very active spreading the art and developing a functional organization for international students. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Old school training. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I wanted to share my thoughts on old school type training. I came up in an > old school dojang. My introduction to Tang Soo Do was getting to spare on > the very first night of class. One of my P. E. students from the high > school was my opponent. I remember a right leg hook kick catching the right > side of my face and the same right leg nailing me on the left temple with a > roundhouse kick before it touched the ground. I don't remember much else. > ... > [snip] imho, the entirety of what you describe is not old school, it is just plain brutal... Unless you were in a Oyama style dojo, they seemed to like a wee bit of contact now and then. :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Schools in San Antonio Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net That Soo Bahk Do dojang that JCC mentioned would probably be a good bet. Not sure how close it is to the Riverwalk area, tho. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Christy Cory" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Old school training. Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 19:15:11 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Warning...I've kept quiet thus far...so now I've alot to say :-) I have to say based on some of the descriptions given previously, that I would bet money that the dojang(s) which you all have mentioned is the very same dojang in which I now train! Under the watchful (frighteningly, all-seeing) eye of Master Garrett DeWitt (Brainerd, MN) I can honestly say I feel we are trained in the "old" or "traditional" way with out a doubt, especially after some of the descriptions you all have given of your "old school" training.  It is all i've ever known and I have never questioned the methods (or insanity as the case may be)...I have always trusted in what is required of his students and my son (started when he was 5) and I are proud to say we train under him and the other black belts he has trained.  I truly value them all both personally and professionally.  That being said... What is up with the 'no air-conditioning' thing?  :-)  We don't have air in our dojang either.  Or atleast none that I've ever been able to reap the benefits of!  So I can only assume it does not exist!  This must be some ancient form of torture that is only passed on to Masters of the schools!  Other weather brings on new and interesting treatment as being in MN it gets a little chilly.  In the winter...the heat is actually turned up regularly through out class and the air blows from factory-quality vents that are in the ceiling directly above where we are standing (panting)!  One of our black belts is particularly fond of having us "bond with patio blocks"...lunges, knee to the ground, up into a front thrust kick, step forward back into lunge position, up and down the floor...holding patio blocks out in front of ourselves!  Horse stance extending patio blocks, wall sits...oh...don't get me started...LOL! I have to say though, that I have no complaints about any of our training.  The thought would not have occurred to me to complain, even the nights my body is screaming at me to quit :-)  When I first began looking for a dojang for my son to train in, there were 2 options here in Brainerd.  I had asked around and had heard that one of the schools had a very nice, personable instructor and "You too can be a black belt in just 2 short years!".  The other school had a mean, gruff (he was also called a jerk) of an instructor who just expected too much of his students (even the children, GASP :-)!  The first school I called, I spoke with a secretary, she quickly informed me of the required contract, duration of said contract, cost, payment schedules, class schedules and their respective age groups.  But then quickly pointed out that my 1st 2 classes would be free in addition to the free dobok (with signed contract).  I then called the second school.  I spoke directly with the Master of that school, no secretary.  He asked me the age of my child, have I ever considered taking a class, we could come in any time we'd like to watch and/or participate, how did I hear of their school, what were my expectations, was there a reason I wanted my child to try martial arts, did I know anything of the different styles, etc?  Wow...all of these questions.  YOU, are trying to get to know ME?  Do you require a contract?  No.  Really?  Nope, no contract.  What do you require of your students (children)?  They must be respectful to their parents and elders.  They must keep their grades up (they are required to bring in their report cards).  They must keep themselves and their rooms clean.  No talking back.  They must TRY!...Wow!  What a jerk (NOT!).  Needless to say, he never went in for his 2 "free" classes.  In fact, 3 months into my sons training, I began to train as well.  So, I must be the masochist some of you have described...because I stuck with the "mean" one :-)        --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Old school training. Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 15:28:31 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net just felt i had to reply to this: ----- Original Message ----- > Things I do remember.... the new faces 8 out of every 10 students would drop > out, often very quickly. Kids and adults with ZERO self confidence were > completely intimidated and would either not come back or drop out like > flies. our school has the same thing going on---for every 6 that come, only one stays. just goes to show you that not everyone has what it takes...i do know this, i earn everything i get.... Those of us that were left fell into several categories, bullies, > masochist, or people too dumb to quit. I fall somewhere in the last two.> sorry to hear that.... > With regards to the hard core guys.... they have their place, and in my > opinion they don't need to make more money or attract more kids because the > kids they tend to attract are often bullies. The world has enough bullies > without martial arts instructors making them more effective. If these > instructors want to benefit their martial arts and their community they need > to learn to teach most kids and when they have instilled the right amount of > skill, knowledge, self discipline, and self control, then and only then > should they be training these kids as hard core warriors. i really must disagree here...at least at our dojang, i dont see any bullies...that whole statement just seems a little "whack" to me---(pun intended). again, i think it is much better to get a more hardcore training, otherwise you just seem to be cheating yourself.....imho. also, at least from what i have seen, the more hardcore type teachers dont seem to be in it for the money...i know that my current teacher sure as heck isnt making a living off of us...how can you with only 5 or 6 full time students? --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 14:25:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] The Good old Days Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Stovall I had to laugh out loud as I read your last post. It brought back so many memories. I trained just like that. for the first 15 or so years of my training. I don't know if its better today than it was then. I know I have a lot of good memories from that time in my life. JC --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest