Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 19:37:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #453 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: another opinion! (Ray Terry) 2. RE: handgun defense (Rick Clark) 3. Re: another opinion! (Ken) 4. Re: another opinion! (Ken) 5. Re: another opinion! (Ray Terry) 6. one steps (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 7. Haidong Gumdo (Robby Seck) 8. Re: one steps (Ken) 9. Hapkido, TKD and Holland (Neil Burton) 10. Scott .....wsd (George Peters) 11. Re: self defense- both genders (Scott) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] another opinion! To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > .. I study kuk ki ryu which means in translation conquor yourself style. Ryu is a Japanese term meaning family or group of schools. Kuk-ki typically means something like (Korean) national flag. How do you get conquer yourself out of that? Do you have the hangul available on a webpage? Just curious... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] handgun defense Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:37:53 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net HI, >I personally feel that more than carrying a handgun for protection and >knowing how to hit the broad side of a barn with it, an individual >needs to have the mindset to actually fire at another human being with >it. Agreed - but you must have the mind set to be willing to break a joint, gouge an eye, collapse the trachea - or use similar brutal or deadly force. I believe too often we practice where we feel the point where a joint will break and let up the pressure - which we must. BUT - perhaps we need to stop and think "ok now if it were for real I would go a bit farther and break the joint". >Norm. >> >From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" >> >A hand gun is an effect weapon but in close combat hand to hand techniques are >> >better. The gun is only useful if you have time to pull it out of a purse, >> >pocket, or even a holster. And hand to hand techniques are only useful if you are able and willing to employ them. Nothing is hard and fast - and I believe I did post that I would prefer to use a superior weapon over empty hand, but empty hand is that option that we may be forced to use. Personally - I needed I would prefer to shoot someone than to punch, kick, lock, throw, choke etc. someone. I am getting too old (and have a bit of a heart problem) to scuffle around with someone. A .45 going off has a tendency of getting the attention of others who might want to enter into a fight - opps I don't think I want any part of this one. >> > The recent discussion about the 21ft rule came >> >from a video that shows a study done with police who are trained with their >> >gun and in most cases they are more familiar with it than the average citizen. >> >You speak of woman, or perhaps the elderly not being able to use hand to hand >> >techniques against a large attacker. A gun would likely be taken away from >> >them if it was not produced fast enough to use it. The reality is that a gun >> >is an effective weapon if you have it out and aimed or at a distance, but >> >against a surprise attack there are better alternatives. I have a CHL and I >> >am familiar with my gun but if attacked by surprise I doubt I could produce it >> >fast enough, and in the process of trying ---what happens if it is knocked out >> >of your hand or turned toward you in the struggle. I believe many gum carriers >> >have a false since of security and their lack of realism could get them >> >killed. All of this is true BUT the bottom line is that if given the choice of facing a person coming in my home (for example) I would rather face them with a gun in hand (even a sword) than bare handed. If nothing else there is an intimidation factor. I was in a situation as a Security Policeman in the USAF where we were searching for an intruder. It was dark and one of our guys saw me but could not make out who I was, he chambered a round in a 12 gauge shotgun (pump) and told me to halt. I FROZE in my tracks and was about ready to #@%$% my pants. That's a sound you don't forget. There is a lot to be said for deterrence. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Ken" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] another opinion! Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:24:27 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net go to www.ijkim.org and read great grandmaster Kim's translation kuk ki means in Korean conquor your-self and that's what I was taught just read his profile and the student hand book, Ken----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Terry" To: Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] another opinion! > > .. I study kuk ki ryu which means in translation conquor yourself style. > > Ryu is a Japanese term meaning family or group of schools. Kuk-ki > typically means something like (Korean) national flag. > > How do you get conquer yourself out of that? Do you have the hangul > available on a webpage? Just curious... > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Ken" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] another opinion! Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:29:24 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I studied under great grand master il joo Kim who is the president of the all american song moo kwan association and found his own style called the Kuk ki ryu style. One of my instructors was Tony blanchard of Ohio and he as well as Grandmaster Kim said it meant conquor youself I have no reason to doubt them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Terry" To: Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] another opinion! > > .. I study kuk ki ryu which means in translation conquor yourself style. > > Ryu is a Japanese term meaning family or group of schools. Kuk-ki > typically means something like (Korean) national flag. > > How do you get conquer yourself out of that? Do you have the hangul > available on a webpage? Just curious... > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] another opinion! To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > go to www.ijkim.org... That URL does not appear to exist nor is it registered. ijkim.com is registered, but the website apparently isn't up yet. ??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 17:04:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] one steps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir; The US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation has 18 standardized one step sparring techniques. We practice them all the time. They teach good concepts like 45 degree movement, transition from stance to stance, distance judgment etc. We also teach what we call free style one step sparring, these are not standardized, and are designed to teach realism and practical application. I believe both ways are important because a new student has to learn good habits in a structured exercise, but more advanced students have to realize that no one is going to lunge punch and just stand there while you kick and punch at them. Both ways are necessary both have to be taught for the purpose of getting a particular result. Teaching just free style will likely result in techniques with less stability, poor distance judgment, lack of complete hip usage as well as other fundamentals because the students is focused on realism. I teach a school that thrives on realism but fundamentals must not be sacrificed. JC --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Robby Seck" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Haidong Gumdo Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 18:52:18 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Haidong, Does anyone know anything about the hand to hand training in Haidong Gumdo. I have been training for just under three years and have started the black belt training. However, in my dojang we only use the sword and nothing else. If anybody knows about this portion of HDGD I would greatly appreciate it. I live in North Carolina and am taught by Kwanjangnim Moon Kap Kim. Rob --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Ken" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] one steps Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:52:40 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net we use one steps and three steps as well and kyong kyuks to learn distance and movements as well. Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 6:04 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] one steps > Sir; > > The US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation has 18 standardized one step > sparring techniques. We practice them all the time. They teach good concepts > like 45 degree movement, transition from stance to stance, distance judgment > etc. We also teach what we call free style one step sparring, these are not > standardized, and are designed to teach realism and practical application. I > believe both ways are important because a new student has to learn good habits > in a structured exercise, but more advanced students have to realize that no > one is going to lunge punch and just stand there while you kick and punch at > them. Both ways are necessary both have to be taught for the purpose of > getting a particular result. Teaching just free style will likely result in > techniques with less stability, poor distance judgment, lack of complete hip > usage as well as other fundamentals because the students is focused on > realism. I teach a school that thrives on realism but fundamentals must not be > sacrificed. > > JC > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 19:00:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Burton To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido, TKD and Holland Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi All I have been offered a promotion at work starting Nov 15th this year that necessitates a move from Singapore to Amsterdam. This means I need to find a Dojang to train in. Does anyone have any contacts in Holland? I am currently 3rd Gup ITF TKD and have no HKD experience, however, I would like to train in both so would be interested in a Dojang that offered this. BTW - two other things. Firstly, the defence against knives. Not sure if you all remember but I stopped tarining about 3 months ago with my old instructor as I had some issues with him. I can know add the following issues - he taught a front snap kick against knives and a crescent kick against fire arms! Secondly - I wonder if Master Timmerman knows of anyone in Europe who can demo the soft breaking technique - I am interested, but am not based state side, so would not have much chance to catch a demo. Thanks Neil --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:03:50 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Scott .....wsd Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, There is so much to think about and reflect on. Thank you, Sir, for sharing your thoughts on this. Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 23:38:14 -0400 From: Scott To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] self defense- both genders Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Robert, I can't responded to SD for both genders because the type of violence that is faced by men and women is completely different. Therefore using guns in SD is different for both. 90% of violence against men is random, from strangers, and happens outside the home. 80% of violence against women is premeditated, from someone they know and most often occurs in the home or at work. That being said I can respond to your post. And know that I am not trying to flame anyone or anything just putting out what I know for others to take or leave as they wish. Robert Hartley wrote: > I note that in the discussion of self defense, nobody has mentioned > firearms. There is a reason for that. We don't plan our SD around anyone weapon. If we did and that weapon was not available then what? We do talk about using guns for WSD. But to be proficient with a fire arm takes constant practice, and dedication to training. That is not the mind set of most WSD students. Again it comes down to audience. You have heard on the list how hard it is for LEO's to use a gun in sudden attacks. Now understand that many women coming to a WSD class are expecting to have everything given to them in 8 one hour sessions. Then never having to deal with this uncomfortable subject again. They just can't learn to use a gun correctly in that amount of time. For those that are interested and want the dedicated training we refer them to the appropriate course. > While I agree that situational awareness/alertness, and various > methods of avoidance are important, the truth is that a gun in the > hands of somebody trained to use it will be more effective in self > defense. Not really. Violence against women is different then violence against men. The majority of the time they will be attacked at home by someone they think is their friend, partner, spouse. 90% of the time they will be prone before they have a chance to react to the assault. So in most cases it doesn't matter if they have a CCP, unless they intend to walk around the house strapped. Even then there is the effect that they don't realize they are being assaulted, until they are fully involved because the person doing it is someone they trusted. No 21 feet not even 2 inches. Even strapped their gun is at best useless, at worse now in the hands of the person who is probably well aware they carry and went for the gun first. > Think about this situation- a large man threatens a petite woman- do > you think that if she says "I have taken a 10 hour self defense class, > you better watch out!" and takes some sort of stance, that it will > scare him? How about if she pulls a handgun from her purse? Granted, > if one does that, then they need to be ready to use it, so just > carrying one to brandish about can be highly counterproductive. This situation is wrong from the beginning. You never threaten a potential assailant. You never say I'm a black belt, or I have A,B,C weapon leave me alone. Actually just brandishing a weapon it is a felony/misdemeanor (depending on the state). Threating someone with it another. If he says go, you beat him off the blocks, and surprise him with want ever you have. O to 100 in 0.0 seconds. When you pull it you start using it. And never ever carry ANY weapon that you are not fully comfortable with, trained with, and ready to KILL with. Again this is not guys thumping their chest outside a bar. VvsW is not the same there are no threats, posturing, proving your tough. It's just fight for your life at close quarters, at severe disadvantage, usually against someone you love and don't want to hurt, but is trying to hurt or kill you. That is the basic situation to start with when thinking about WSD scenarios. > Or, a man (of whatever age, health, size, and level of training) faces > off against multiple attackers, or perhaps one or more with weapons? This is a different situation. Again not common for WSD, But for guys it could be. Here a gun is going to be helpful. A. if you can pull it. And B. if they don't have one or more out already. But again you are getting into the threat thing. And as was stated by Norm in another post. What happens if you threaten and they don't back down? In either case, guys or women, you won't have time to wait and see if they are responding to your threat or not. Don't pull it until you need to use it. And when you pull it start using it. The basic issue of using force in SD is did you feel in fear of your life. If you pulled a weapon and threatened them before using it then there is a period of indecision that lawyers can use to cast doubt on wither you were really in fear of your life or just thinking about assaulting the attacker, now the victim. > In neither situation is dialing 911 going to be effective. It is rarely effective as SD ever. Only in getting a cleanup crew for after the assault is over with. > Granted, if one does carry a firearm, then they need to be ready to > use it, and trained in its use, as just carrying one to brandish > about can be highly counterproductive. not to mention it will get you arrested. > Anyway- just pointing out that we as martial artists often focus on > empty hand (or kicking) techniques. While they have their place, and > I feel I have had the benefit of training such that I am able to > handle most encounters that don't involve a weapon, if I were > confronted with multiple attackers, or those with weapons, I fear I > would lose. However, the presence of a handgun could save my life, > and the lives of others. Very true. But I still think that there is a basic flaw relying on any one weapon for SD. And after all my preaching about the short comings of guns. I will say that I do encourage women and men to learn to use and carry firearms as long as they are willing to take proper and on going training with the weapon. I will also tell you two stories that I love and tell to all my WSD classes. (but I will give you the short versions) Texas, a man shoplifts things from a grocery store on the way out 5 clerks confront him, he pulls a knife slashing one clerk and threatening to kill anyone who tries to stop him. A little old lady in her 70's is checking out at the register. Pulls a large caliber chrome plated revolver from her purse walks toward the man telling him to drop the knife and lay on the floor or she will blow a hole in his chest. the man quickly drops the knife and complys. In Michigan not far from my home. 80 year old women awakes to a man standing over her bed. The robber takes her through the house wanting her to give him money. When she has none to give he takes her back to the bedroom and prepares to rape her. The women tells him that she remembers there is some money in the closet in a shoe box. He allows her to go get it. She reaches in to the shoebox and pulls her late husbands service revolver and proceeds to shoot the robber in the chest. She then walks next door and phones the police. The 911 call went like this: women "There is a robber in my house! 911 "is he still there" woman "Yes, I shot him!" 911 "is he still alive?" women "I hope not I emptied the damn gun into him!" I like that one. :-) Scott --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest