Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:37:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #455 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on behemoth2.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Punching Bags (Martin Von Cannon) 2. Re: Ryu Pa (Bruce Sims) 3. NY Daily News 10-26-04 (rob mulligan) 4. Re: Statistics (Scott) 5. Re: Breaking in Europa (Duncan Shewan) 6. RE: Haidong Kwon-bub (Robby Seck) 7. Re: handgun defense (Norm Langevin) 8. One steps (Dana Yeagley) 9. Re: Taekwondo in Amsterdam (Klaas Barends) 10. RE: handgun defense (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:38:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Martin Von Cannon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Punching Bags Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings; I am in the market for punching bags. I would like all of your opinions concerning types and companies. Currently I teach out of a recreation center, so permanent mounting is pretty much out of the question. -- Martin Von Cannon Instructor Tacoma, WA. Dojang A Black Belt is more than something you wear. It's more than something you earn. A Black Belt is something you become. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:51:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ryu Pa Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....Ryu is indeed a Japanese word, but I am inclined to believe that its usage inKorean may not be that unusual. Master Hwang Kee referred to his ryu pa n volume one, Tang Soo Do, and left that term in the revised Tang SooDo/Soo Bahk Do text....." Sorry, but I continue to take offense at the casual way that Japanese terminology specifically and Japanese tradition in general is invoked in Korean martial studies. A "ryu" is a Japanese tradition. I am not particularly impressed with WHO may have used it incorrectly in the past. The fact is that it is still a Japanese tradition. In fact, technically, Hapkido through both the Choi and Jang traditions are essentially Japanese traditions, though people like to identify what they do as a Korean tradition since it was a Korean who brought the practicies back to Korea. So if a person wants to use Japanese terminology then own that what is being practiced is a Japanese art. If a person wants to have linear succession and eschew Japanese tradition then declare yourself a corporation or a sole proprietorship. But how about enough of bending semantics to make up for the fact that whats being served-up is a contrived substitution for not having actually learned a Korean art, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "rob mulligan" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:04:46 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] NY Daily News 10-26-04 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net He was hero to kill bouncer, att'y says BY BARBARA ROSS DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER Tuesday, October 26th, 2004 A Queens martial arts expert on trial for slaying an East Village nightclub bouncer enforcing the city smoking ban was merely defending a pal from the boozed-up and burly doorman, his lawyer argued yesterday. "It wasn't bad or criminal. It was heroic," attorney Alan Lewis said of Isais Umali during opening arguments. Umali, a master in Philippine knife fighting, is charged with stabbing Dana (Shazam) Blake, 32, in the groin after the bouncer tried to enforce the city's then-new smoking ban at Guernica. Blake was evicting Umali's buddy Jonathan Chan for smoking in the trendy Avenue B club on April 13, 2003, when the fight broke out, witnesses said. Assistant District Attorney David Lauscher described the confrontation to eject Chan, his brother and his sister as a pushing-and-shoving match. But Umali's lawyer argued that Blake, who is 6-feet-6 and weighs 366 pounds, had Chan in a choke hold and had lifted him off the ground. Onlookers "clawed" at Blake, who allegedly was seen drinking and dancing, Lewis said. "Isais was suddenly confronted with a choice," Lewis said of his 5-foot-7, 140-pound client. "Inaction or bravery." To protect Chan - the son of the notorious Ghost Shadows gang leader Wing Yeung Chan - Umali gave Blake "a single poke" to his upper thigh with a 6-inch foldup knife used in Kali, a Philippine martial art, Lewis said. The cut measured 1-1/2 to 2 inches, he said, but severed an artery, causing Blake to bleed to death. Lauscher described a far different scene, telling jurors Umali intended to cause Blake's death because he expertly moved his knife in a way "that is designed to cut arteries." One of the prosecution's first witnesses was Allain Atienza, Umali's longtime friend who is an instructor in the art of Kali. Shortly after the stabbing, Umali - "intoxicated" and wearing bloodied clothes - came to Atienza's upper East Side apartment and described how he had stabbed Blake, Atienza testified. Atienza, demonstrating for the jury, extended his index and middle fingers, thrust them forward and turned them 180 degrees before dragging them to the left. Atienza said the purpose of the "twist and pull" motion is to make the wound worse and to inflict pain. _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:27:37 -0400 From: Scott To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Statistics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Sharon, Sharon Tkach wrote: > Scott wrote, among other things: > >> 90% of violence against men is random, from strangers, and happens >> outside the home. > FBI UCR, not sure which year had the summary of random and strangers and location were in late 90's is the best I can do. >> 80% of violence against women is premeditated, from someone they know >> and most often >> occurs in the home or at work. > Check any violence against womens site for links and info about that one. >> Violence against women is different then violence against men. The >> majority of the time they will > be attacked at home by someone they >> think is their friend, partner, spouse. > Again VvsW sites. Almost all will give the same stats. How are the different? The number of sexual assaults against men is very low compared to the number against women. The use of a weapon is more common against men then women. The number of assaults committed by an acquaintance is higher for women then for men. All these are in the FBI UCR, and are just a few of the things that by their nature change to context of the assault. >> 90% of the time they will be prone before they have a chance to react >> to the assault. > This was a quote from a NYC police officer at an AWSDA rape prevention instructors seminar. I have seen various stats that give similar numbers. His is the one that sticks to my mind so that is the one I remember. Check AWSDA.ORG they might have a better link to a source for it. Basically these stats are a composite from many sources. Most are the numbers generally agreed upon in WSD instructors community. For my own calculations I usually refer to the FBI unform crime reports. When I started looking at them in 87 they were in the library, the last few years are available online. You have to hunt the FBI website for them as the tend to change the links often. Others sources are from National Victims Rights Center, Violence against women, AWSDA seminars, various other news sources and groups. Also one of my personally trusted sources is Women that work in Crisis shelter/hot lines. They generally can tell you the trends that they are seeing years before they show up on any official reports. I wish there was just one place that would compile them all for us, but I have yet to find it. If you want to check them just start looking at Victims advocacy sites, you will find lots of links and info. I usually don't use figures unless I see them from various sources.(one noted exception is a report quote by CNN several times last month which I have yet to be able to find their source) But I was never good at bibliographys so I don't keep good records on the exact sources. I do encourage you and everyone to do your own research and test my numbers. You will learn alot more about what is happening around you, and how the media and other sources spin things. Example, I was shocked to find out that we have around ten bombings in our city every year. Never once heard of one on the local news. Even scarier is that there are only about 7 bomb threats. Which means that people are more likely to bomb then just threaten to bomb. Makes me change my thoughts on how I will react if someone one asks me to calmly leave the building. Some interesting trends I've seen, in the early 80's either 80 or 84 I can't remember which year, was the first year that there were more random violent crimes then premeditated. (this has not changed sense.) But also at that time 90% of violent crimes were against men. In the past few years the percent in the FBI UCR has decreased to more around 80% against men. So it's easy to see why "Stranger Danger" is first in the mind of someone looking a SD. But violence against women has always been mainly perpetrated by aquantinances. There in lies the Stranger vs Aquantinance confusion. And a major difference in the type of crime. But it is hard to tell if there is more crime against women or if the crimes against men are just getting plead down more. If you watch the FBI stats for a few years you will see two things. Like the media reports index crimes like Rape, murder, Assault, sodomy, arson are on the decrease. but checking the total number of crimes you will see a sharp increase in Crimes Against Persons. So the question is, is there really a decrease in Crime or are the cases just getting plead down and filed in a lesser not counted by the media category. Anyway please go looking yourself. It is important to have more people looking at these things so that more people are aware and willing to get involved. Want a shocker to get you started, try looking up your zip code on your states registered sex offenders list. If you want some links to get you started email me off list. Let me know what you find. Thanks Scott --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Duncan Shewan" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Breaking in Europa Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:33:02 +0100 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 7:35 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Breaking in Europa > Neil writes: > > I wonder if Master Timmerman knows of anyone in > > Europe who can demo the soft breaking technique - I am > > interested, but am not based state side, so would not > > have much chance to catch a demo. > If you could get to the UK Cambridge in particular. That is where my master is based, im sure he would be very happy to teach you. There is a Master Lee(Tang Soo Do) in Groningen who has trained with my Master he may know. > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Robby Seck" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Haidong Kwon-bub Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 13:26:51 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Anthony, First, thanks for the quick response. Secondly, were you at the 2004 Haidong Gumdo World Championship? Could I expect to see you at the 2006 World Tournament. Haidong, Rob --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:32:24 -0400 From: Norm Langevin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] handgun defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rick, I had to laugh when I read your reply and not in any sort of derogatory way. I think the reason that I am having a hard time coming to grips with this topic is partly cultural. Being Canadian and without easy access to handguns (and really guns in general) I do not consider the possibility of actually using a handgun for self defense. I am trying to rework my self defense paradigm to consider the additional possibilities. (point of clarification - even though a Canadian ;-) I do own guns and am an avid hunter and shooter). On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:37:53 -0500, Rick Clark wrote: > Agreed - but you must have the mind set to be willing to break a joint, > gouge an eye, collapse the trachea - or use similar brutal or deadly > force. I believe too often we practice where we feel the point where a > joint will break and let up the pressure - which we must. BUT - perhaps > we need to stop and think "ok now if it were for real I would go a bit > farther and break the joint". I see your point on this one. I do feel though, for me at least, it is easier to hit someone than to shoot them. Maybe it is cultural again, but for me it is more 'natural' and less extreme and therefore has a shorter mental trigger. > Personally - I needed I would prefer to shoot someone than to punch, > kick, lock, throw, choke etc. someone. I am getting too old (and have a > bit of a heart problem) to scuffle around with someone. A .45 going off > has a tendency of getting the attention of others who might want to > enter into a fight - opps I don't think I want any part of this one. Have to agree with you that the discharge of a firearm is certainly an attention getter and can be an excellent deterrent - still not sure that the average individual will be able to get through the requisite mental barriers in time for it to be of use though (I am assuming that this is the first time the individual has had to make the choice.) > >> > The recent discussion about the 21ft rule came > >> >from a video that shows a study done with police who are trained > with their > >> >gun and in most cases they are more familiar with it than the > average citizen. > >> >You speak of woman, or perhaps the elderly not being able to use > hand to hand > >> >techniques against a large attacker. A gun would likely be taken > away from > >> >them if it was not produced fast enough to use it. The reality is > that a gun > >> >is an effective weapon if you have it out and aimed or at a > distance, but > >> >against a surprise attack there are better alternatives. I have a > CHL and I > >> >am familiar with my gun but if attacked by surprise I doubt I could > produce it > >> >fast enough, and in the process of trying ---what happens if it is > knocked out > >> >of your hand or turned toward you in the struggle. I believe many > gum carriers > >> >have a false since of security and their lack of realism could get > them > >> >killed. > > All of this is true BUT the bottom line is that if given the choice of > facing a person coming in my home (for example) I would rather face them > with a gun in hand (even a sword) than bare handed. If nothing else > there is an intimidation factor. I was in a situation as a Security > Policeman in the USAF where we were searching for an intruder. It was > dark and one of our guys saw me but could not make out who I was, he > chambered a round in a 12 gauge shotgun (pump) and told me to halt. I > FROZE in my tracks and was about ready to #@%$% my pants. That's a > sound you don't forget. There is a lot to be said for deterrence. Again I have to agree with you 100%, given the choice, I would rather meet the invader at the door with my 12GA. I (and it appears you are as well) am trained to do so. My concern is for those without the benefit of training and experience who believe what they see as a gunfight in the movies. Superior firepower doesn't do them any good if they have never fired a shot at anything but paper. Maybe my Canadian roots are just too strong or I am still too naive but, I do not believe that the average person buying a gun for self defense is going to get the results they are expecting. I certainly will stand to be corrected on this. > Rick Clark > www.ao-denkou-kai.org > _______________________________________________ > > > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Dana Yeagley" To: Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:08:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] One steps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In our Tae Kwon Do dojang we still do one steps. We have a certain set of one steps that we are responsible for at each rank. At white, yellow and orange belts they are given with a straight punch proceeded by a keyup. As we move higher in rank they are changed a little. The keyup is taken away before the punch is given. Moving higher the person attacking will do random punches (instead of right, then left, then right, etc.). By the time we get to red belt ranks our punches become jabs instead of the straight punch from the belt. This is to mimic more realistic fighting. Occasionally, we will do a few one steps with kicks. Dana Yeagley Academy of Fighting Arts MO.           A question,  How many of you still do traditional step techniques ( 1 steps, 2 steps, etc ) with straight punch etc.? how many have modified them, and in what way? And how many have dropped them altogether.   Clint Bonner ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Klaas Barends Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 06:10:38 +0900 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Taekwondo in Amsterdam Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > The only HKD dojang in Amsterdam (for as far as I know) is > our dojang. > http://www.hapkido.nl/index.php?mode=info&Page=178 > (page is in Dutch) Here you will find some links to taekwondo schools in Amsterdam: http://www.taekwondobond.nl/clublijst/clubs.asp?Distrikt=MIDDEN I think they are mostly WTF schools, but am not sure. Couldn't find any ITF schools, but at http://taekwondo.pagina.nl/ you will find many links to taekwondo related sites in the Netherlands. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ http://www.sangmookwan.com/ --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] handgun defense Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:25:46 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Norm, >From: Norm Langevin [mailto:normlangevin@gmail.com] >Rick, > >I had to laugh when I read your reply and not in any sort of derogatory way. That's good at least :-) >I think the reason that I am having a hard time coming to grips with this topic is partly > cultural. Being Canadian and without easy access to handguns (and really guns in > general) I do not consider the possibility of actually using a handgun for self >defense. I am always sorry to hear when people do not have legal access to handguns. There is a lot of hype out there that "guns" kill innocent people, and that always makes me laugh in a sad way I hate to say. The pure and simple truth is that any gun or weapon has to have a human control it to make it work. I have looked at crime stats and read quite a few articles that indicate when there is private gun ownership and there are individuals who can legally carry them violent crime decreases. For example I was looking at some information that the rate of breaking and entry (someone breaking into your home) has increased in the UK at a rather sharp rate. In the UK in the past few years private gun ownership has become more and more difficult. So fewer home will have a gun where a person can get one to defend themselves. Not to mention some of the crazy court cases I have heard about in the UK where the homeowner while defending their home and family has ended up in court. I read one newspaper case where a burglar fell through a skylight while breaking into a home, fell on some kitchen knives on the sink and injured themselves AND the home owner was taken to court because they stored their knives in an unsafe manner! I know in the US we have our crazy court cases as well . . . . . . Point being in the UK its very hard to own a gun and keep it at home for defense, and the crime rate of burglary has increased. When a criminal does not fear they will act - one of the basic guides I use in my life to explain the actions of others when I am at a loss to explain the craziness is - when the perceived pleasure outweighs the perceived pain a person will act. When the perceived pain is greater than the perceived pleasure they will not act. > I am trying to rework my self defense paradigm to consider >the additional possibilities. (point of clarification - even though a >Canadian ;-) I do own guns and am an avid hunter and shooter). Take a look at www.nra.org they have some stories about average citizens helping police, defending themselves, and other 'interesting' reading. >I see your point on this one. I do feel though, for me at least, it >is easier to hit someone than to shoot them. Maybe it is cultural >again, but for me it is more 'natural' and less extreme and therefore >has a shorter mental trigger. Agreed - at least in part, I am 56 yrs old and have been involved in the martial arts since 1962 - so it's been a couple of years :-) I have an implanted defibrillator and a knee that has had an ACL replacement. So I am not a young guy, in great shape, and ready to go several rounds. IF I ever have to defend myself - it will be in my estimation only if deadly force is justified. Remember, I have heart problems and I am getting a couple of years on me so . . . . . . . while some may consider a punch, kick, or restraining technique. If I were forced to defend myself it would be with the intention to put the person on the ground as fast and as hard as possible, with as little possibility of me going to the ground. I would want to cause the maximum amount of injury to the individual I could in the shortest amount of time and not allow them the possibility to re-attack me or my family. SO - I would not engage in any altercation if my perception was that it was a less than deadly force encounter. You can call me a SOB all day and, at least to me, that is not sufficient to engage in some type of altercation. >Have to agree with you that the discharge of a firearm is certainly an >attention getter and can be an excellent deterrent - still not sure >that the average individual will be able to get through the requisite >mental barriers in time for it to be of use though (I am assuming that >this is the first time the individual has had to make the choice.) You have to prepare to break through that barrier no matter if you are using a gun for self-defense or if you are using your hands and feet. You MUST be mentally prepared to use force and possibly deadly force to defend the lives of your family other members of society, or yourself. >Again I have to agree with you 100%, given the choice, I would rather >meet the invader at the door with my 12GA. I (and it appears you are >as well) am trained to do so. My concern is for those without the >benefit of training and experience who believe what they see as a >gunfight in the movies. Superior firepower doesn't do them any good >if they have never fired a shot at anything but paper. Nor does a black belt if you have not insured that your training is appropriate to your needs. > >Maybe my Canadian roots are just too strong or I am still too naive >but, I do not believe that the average person buying a gun for self >defense is going to get the results they are expecting. I certainly >will stand to be corrected on this. I can agree with you in part - Preparation for an actual event is crucial no matter if it's with a firearm or empty hand. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest