Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 03:01:52 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #456 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on behemoth2.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: handgun defense (jeffrey kiral) 2. Re: handgun defense (Ray Terry) 3. kwonbub/2004 championship (A. Boyd) 4. RE: Ryu-Pa (Frank Clay) 5. RE: handgun defense (Rick Clark) 6. Re: Statistics (Scott) 7. Re: Statistics (Ray Terry) 8. Re: Re: Ryu Pa (Neil Burton) 9. Re: Re: Taekwondo in Amsterdam (Neil Burton) 10. Re: Re: Ryu Pa (Neil Burton) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "jeffrey kiral" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] handgun defense Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:44:33 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net you seem to forget something when citing your crime stats...look at the rate of deaths by guns in the u.s. and look at the u.k. and canada....why is it that we americans are so obsessed with doling out violence via the gun? movie plug: bowling for columbine.... --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] handgun defense To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > you seem to forget something when citing your crime stats...look at the rate > of deaths by guns in the u.s. and look at the u.k. and canada....why is it > that we americans are so obsessed with doling out violence via the gun? Gun violence. I just 'love' that term. Why is it we never hear of ballbat violence or knife violence or car violence or ??? Guns are not now and have never been the reason for violence in the US. We just tend to be a violent society, much more so than the UK or Canada or several other places. e.g. the UK has been tracking violent crime rates since the 1860s. Their violent crime rates have changed little thru the years even tho gun control has gotten stronger and stronger there over those same years. I could go on and on and on about Japan or Canada or France or Aus or ?? but this is a KMA forum. > movie plug: bowling for columbine.... Michael Moore's "documentary"?!? No thanks. As per much (all?) of his work, toooo filled with lies and half-truths. If you want the facts you'll have to do a bit of digging through the volumes of research on the matter. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:20:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] kwonbub/2004 championship Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rob, Yes, I was there again this year and will very likely attend again in 2006. I've been a participant since the first one and I imagine I will keep going to them until I leave Korea. You meet the best people at such events! ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:44:34 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Ryu-Pa Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I find it very hard to believe that you know more about Korean than the founder of the Moo Duk Kwan. Are you a Korean linguist? You might want to tread very cautiously here. f. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] handgun defense Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:11:42 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Jeffrey, I will not be able to carry on this thread because I am leaving to teach seminars in Germany, Belgium, Holland, and the UK tomorrow morning. BUT - If you go to the web site of Interpol and look up crime stats I believe you will find that there a quite a few countries that have a higher per capita murder rate than the US, and in countries that you would not expect to have a higher rate. When I am overseas I have noticed some cultural differences. As an American I am truly impressed with the long history of the UK, Europe, and Scandinavia. What is old to me is rather new to my friends over there. Yet, distance to me is rather short but a long drive to their perception. As an example my wife and I will drive to have lunch and a few hours with relatives in a day. It is the about the same distance as if you were to drive from London to Paris (I know about the water in between and the Chunnel). As to the 'plug' please do not believe everything you see in print or video. Rick Clark If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking. --General George S. Patton www.ao-denkou-kai.org > From: jeffrey kiral [mailto:JAKSKRU@peoplepc.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 8:45 PM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] handgun defense > > you seem to forget something when citing your crime stats...look at the > rate > of deaths by guns in the u.s. and look at the u.k. and canada....why is it > that we americans are so obsessed with doling out violence via the gun? > > movie plug: bowling for columbine.... > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:19:25 -0400 From: Scott To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Statistics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As per my last post this was just posted from the new york times. Don't worry violent crime is down just murder is up. Last year was the same thing. violent crime down Murder up 2%. If murder isn't violent crime then what is? I just checked and the 2003 UCR is out. Check http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#cius You will notice that they stress through out the report "as reported by local officials". IMHO this is because as usual they are at best understateing the stats. It shows that in my town there was just one murder last year. Gee that's great I wonder what they are calling the other four people that were shot and stabbed to death? Violent Crime Dipped in '03; Murder Rose *By ERIC LICHTBLAU* Published: October 26, 2004 ASHINGTON, Oct. 25 - Violent crime dropped 3 percent last year even as the number of murders rose, the Federal Bureau of Investigation said Monday in a report that had immediate reverberations in the presidential campaign. The new statistics, drawn from law enforcement agencies across the country, showed continuation of a general national decline in crime rates that began in the early 1990's. But some criminologists said they were troubled by the rise in murders, which were up 1.7 percent last year, to 16,503. "We've seen a disturbing growth in youth killings and gang killings in many cities,'' said James Alan Fox, a professor of criminal justice at Northeastern University. "The homicide numbers should give us reason to pay more attention to street crime than we have." Crime has received scant attention in the presidential campaign, with issues like guns, the death penalty, sentencing policies and money for the police the subjects of much less debate than in past elections. Polls show that many voters still consider crime a priority, but political analysts say declining crime rates at home and the overarching importance of terrorism abroad have made it a less potent political issue. Still, Republicans and Democrats alike seized on the F.B.I. statistics. Attorney General John Ashcroft noted that the rates of violent and property crime were at their lowest levels in three decades and said law enforcement officials around the country were succeeding in prosecuting gun violence, drug offenses and other criminal activity. But Senator John Edwards, the Democratic vice-presidential nominee, said the statistics "remind us how much more we have to do to fight crime and keep our communities safe in America." Mr. Edwards cited a 6 percent increase in murders since 2000 and a 25 percent rise in gang killings. He said a surge in methamphetamine abuse and a cutback by President Bush in federal money for police departments were causes for concern. The F.B.I. data released Monday, in the bureau's annual Uniform Crime Report, showed about 1.4 million violent crimes in the United States last year, a drop of 3 percent. Murder was the only type of violent crime to increase. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Statistics To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > understateing the stats. It shows that in my town there was just one > murder last year. Gee that's great I wonder what they are calling the > other four people that were shot and stabbed to death? This is one place where descriptive statistics can be fairly misleading. e.g. being shot and stabbed to death are homicides, but not necessarily murders. Perhaps in the case of your town they were murders, but you get my drift. Another example... a businessman in Japan is fired. He comes home, kills his entire family and then kills himself. According to the crime stats in Japan not a single murder has occurred. This type of family suicide was more common in the past, but it still does occur. Or so I understand. Thus when comparing crime stats we must be sure we are comparing apples to apples. But this is a KMA forum... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:39:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Burton Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Ryu Pa To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Um, I think i better put my flame retardent jacket on... Having done my degree in Japanese language and studies I have certain sympathies for your position - however, it is very easy to forget the linguistic similarities between Korean and Japanese, in grammar and in terms of vocabulary. Korean is generally considered to be an Altaic language, but large amounts of the vocabulary are borrowed from Chinese. This is important to note, as Japanese also borrows extensively from Chinese - as evidenced by the On Yomi reading of a Kanji. On Yomi and Kun Yomi refer to teh Chinese and Japanese pronunciations of a Kanji. For ryu we have the following: Kanji: —¬ On Yomi: Ryu - noun suffix "style of", "school (of thought)" Kun Yomi: Naga - noun "Sink" (Nagashi), and the verb "to wash down" (Nagashikomu) It is entirely likely that Japanese and Korean both have borrowed this word from the Chinese word "Liu" (pinyin form) meaning "flow", "circulate", "drift" or "class". So, to end, I doubt that this is, in fact, borrowed by the Koreans from the Japanese - rather I suspect both languages have borrowed it from Chinese, which is a root language for vocabulary for them. Hope that helps clear that up, and that the mail isn't too long. Just thought some explanation of the root of the word, and the method of entry into both languages would be helpful in this discussion. Best Regards Neil --- Bruce Sims wrote: > ".....Ryu is indeed a Japanese word, but I am > inclined > to believe that its usage inKorean may not be that > unusual. Master Hwang Kee referred to his ryu > pa n volume one, Tang Soo Do, and left that term in > the revised Tang SooDo/Soo Bahk Do text....." > > Sorry, but I continue to take offense at the casual > way that Japanese terminology specifically and > Japanese tradition in general is invoked in Korean > martial studies. A "ryu" is a Japanese tradition. I > am > not particularly impressed with WHO may have used it > incorrectly in the past. The fact is that it is > still > a Japanese tradition. In fact, technically, Hapkido > through both the Choi and Jang traditions are > essentially Japanese traditions, though people like > to > identify what they do as a Korean tradition since it > was a Korean who brought the practicies back to > Korea. > So if a person wants to use Japanese terminology > then > own that what is being practiced is a Japanese art. > If > a person wants to have linear succession and eschew > Japanese tradition then declare yourself a > corporation > or a sole proprietorship. But how about enough of > bending semantics to make up for the fact that whats > being served-up is a contrived substitution for not > having actually learned a Korean art, yes? > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:54:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Burton Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Taekwondo in Amsterdam To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the help - I have found a Dutch ITF site through itf-information.com, but I would be very interested in cross training in HKD. Once I am in Holland I will drop by if thats ok - from what I have read on this forum TKD and HKD seem to be quite complementary! Cheers Neil --- Klaas Barends wrote: > > The only HKD dojang in Amsterdam (for as far as I > know) is > > our dojang. > > http://www.hapkido.nl/index.php?mode=info&Page=178 > > (page is in Dutch) > > Here you will find some links to taekwondo schools > in Amsterdam: > > http://www.taekwondobond.nl/clublijst/clubs.asp?Distrikt=MIDDEN > > I think they are mostly WTF schools, but am not > sure. > Couldn't find any ITF schools, but at > http://taekwondo.pagina.nl/ you > will find many links to taekwondo related sites in > the Netherlands. > > > -- > kind regards, > > Klaas Barends > http://www.hapkido.nl/ > http://www.sangmookwan.com/ > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:04:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Burton Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Ryu Pa To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok - the kanji didn't write in properly - so I have loaded a jpeg to tinypic - it is available at: http://tinypic.com/ejzom for the curious Regards Neil --- Neil Burton wrote: > Um, I think i better put my flame retardent jacket > on... > > Having done my degree in Japanese language and > studies > I have certain sympathies for your position - > however, > it is very easy to forget the linguistic > similarities > between Korean and Japanese, in grammar and in terms > of vocabulary. > > Korean is generally considered to be an Altaic > language, but large amounts of the vocabulary are > borrowed from Chinese. This is important to note, as > Japanese also borrows extensively from Chinese - as > evidenced by the On Yomi reading of a Kanji. > > On Yomi and Kun Yomi refer to teh Chinese and > Japanese > pronunciations of a Kanji. For ryu we have the > following: > > Kanji: —¬ > On Yomi: Ryu - noun suffix "style of", "school (of > thought)" > Kun Yomi: Naga - noun "Sink" (Nagashi), and the verb > "to wash down" (Nagashikomu) > > It is entirely likely that Japanese and Korean both > have borrowed this word from the Chinese word "Liu" > (pinyin form) meaning "flow", "circulate", "drift" > or > "class". > > So, to end, I doubt that this is, in fact, borrowed > by > the Koreans from the Japanese - rather I suspect > both > languages have borrowed it from Chinese, which is a > root language for vocabulary for them. > > Hope that helps clear that up, and that the mail > isn't > too long. Just thought some explanation of the root > of > the word, and the method of entry into both > languages > would be helpful in this discussion. > > Best Regards > > Neil > > --- Bruce Sims wrote: > > > ".....Ryu is indeed a Japanese word, but I am > > inclined > > to believe that its usage inKorean may not be that > > unusual. Master Hwang Kee referred to his ryu > > pa n volume one, Tang Soo Do, and left that term > in > > the revised Tang SooDo/Soo Bahk Do text....." > > > > Sorry, but I continue to take offense at the > casual > > way that Japanese terminology specifically and > > Japanese tradition in general is invoked in Korean > > martial studies. A "ryu" is a Japanese tradition. > I > > am > > not particularly impressed with WHO may have used > it > > incorrectly in the past. The fact is that it is > > still > > a Japanese tradition. In fact, technically, > Hapkido > > through both the Choi and Jang traditions are > > essentially Japanese traditions, though people > like > > to > > identify what they do as a Korean tradition since > it > > was a Korean who brought the practicies back to > > Korea. > > So if a person wants to use Japanese terminology > > then > > own that what is being practiced is a Japanese > art. > > If > > a person wants to have linear succession and > eschew > > Japanese tradition then declare yourself a > > corporation > > or a sole proprietorship. But how about enough of > > bending semantics to make up for the fact that > whats > > being served-up is a contrived substitution for > not > > having actually learned a Korean art, yes? > > > > Best Wishes, > > > > Bruce > > _______________________________________________ > > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > > Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest