Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:10:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #459 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on behemoth2.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Not for Profit Teaching - At Risk Kids (Kip McCormick) 2. Why (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. Pyong Ahn One Steps (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 4. Re: Bag Work (Ray Terry) 5. RE: Not for Profit Teaching - At Risk Kids (Kip McCormick) 6. RE: One steps (Kip McCormick) 7. Re: Samurang (Bruce Sims) 8. Re: Samurang (Bruce Sims) 9. gun stats (tntcombatives@comcast.net) 10. HKD/JJ/groundfighting - Nampa Idaho. (tntcombatives@comcast.net) 11. the two step about one step (michael tomlinson) 12. Re: Samurang (Neil Burton) 13. Ray Terry...one step (George Peters) 14. Ryu (Dennis McHenry) 15. Re: Ryu (Jeremy Anderson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Not for Profit Teaching - At Risk Kids Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:13:56 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Boys and Girls Clubs work well, as do some YMCA-type organizations. Like Ray said, there are some churches you can use for space, too (some of them have AWESOME gyms!). Additionally, you can try local gymnasiums and see if they'd want to sponsor you (i.e. Balleys or Golds). The problem you could run into, though, is insurance. Go to some places that traditionally teach kids programs (non-martial arts) and ask. If you're near a military base there's a chance you can use their facilities but access can be problematic. However, National Guard Armories are much, much more accessable and usually have a lot of open space. You could teach the kids of the NG folks who work there as a "bone" for the space. I also teach for free and the problem I've found is that 1) people can't believe me when I say I teach for free and 2) other instructors in the area have a problem with me because they fear I'll be "stealing students." (I never try to "take" a student from an instructor and if someone trains with me as they're training under another instructor, I always make every effort to contact that instructor and develop a friendship). On a side note, as an active duty army officer, I personally/ethically have a problem teaching combatives to soldiers (and their families) and making money off of it. I guess I'm too altruistic on that one. Best wishes for you on this. It's awesome that you want to make a huge difference for those who can't afford it. Kip >From: Ray Terry >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Not for Profit Teaching - At Risk Kids >Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:33:42 -0700 (PDT) > > > Any advice as to how to approach various organizations for use of > > facilities? This program is going to be aimed at youth through age 17. >Since > > my clientele will not have the ability to pay, anyone know what > > organizations would be willing to donate space? After that, how do I get >the > > word out? The idea is to give kids a positive alternative to the things >they > > normally see in their daily culture such as drugs, alcohol and gangs. > >There seem to be a lot of Korean Baptist churches around. They may be >interested in such a program. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:13:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Why Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Because its our constitutional right to bear arms. I believe that guns don't kill people, people kill people. JC --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:20:50 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Pyong Ahn One Steps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir; We do not do Pyoung Ahn one steps. JC --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bag Work To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have really enjoyed the BOB Life size kicking targets with the water base. > It may work well as it needs no hanging support. It does however require > someone to hold it if you kick with heavy contact. It will slide on the > floor. One idea... use that sliding around on the floor to work on moving left and right around the sliding bag, circling it, to keep it pretty much in the same general area. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Not for Profit Teaching - At Risk Kids Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:25:52 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank- I just posted not realizing it was you and only reading Ray's response. Sometimes I "Gump" things up "...martial arts is like a box of chocolates..." The problem I've had setting up my program has been 1) getting space at a time when folks aren't wanting to go to bed/eat dinner, etc; and 2) having mats (probably shouldn't be a problem since you already run a school.) The National Guard Armory is a great asset (see my previous post) and I highly recommend that route. You'd be surprised how many soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines and the civilians who support are living at or below the poverty level, trying to support a family, etc, and I imagine they'd love to help you out. As far as getting the word out, word of mouth and flyers have worked for me, and you'd be surprised how quickly word spreads in the program. In a school I was in several years ago the instructor just made up a bunch of flyers, went to the area where you knew times were tough, and knocked on doors personally handing out flyers. Not only did he meet many skeptical folks, but he could elaborate on what he was doing. My first couple of weeks things were slow, but my students would tell two friends...and so on... and so on... (isn't that a bad hair commercial from the 70s?). Lastly, it's also great if you can run the program 3 days per week. Not only is repetition the mother of learning, but parents get in the habit of coming to class (the old adage of "the longer your away from class the harder it is to get back into class...) God bless you, my friend, for doing this! Kip >From: "Frank Clay" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Not for Profit Teaching - At Risk Kids >Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:09:17 -0600 > >I am looking into doing some volunteer teaching. I have gained my >instructors support but I have a question. Has anyone set up such a >program? >Any advice as to how to approach various organizations for use of >facilities? This program is going to be aimed at youth through age 17. >Since >my clientele will not have the ability to pay, anyone know what >organizations would be willing to donate space? After that, how do I get >the >word out? The idea is to give kids a positive alternative to the things >they >normally see in their daily culture such as drugs, alcohol and gangs. > >Thanks in advance. >Frank >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] One steps Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:38:14 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Clinton- I've been to literally scores of kukkiwon tests in Korea as both a participant and a spectator and never do you have to do one steps. In fact, the whole process is down right depressing. The kukkiwon is an old building in Seoul that leaks water during monsoon season and has a limited heating system at best in the winter. In the summer the only thing cool is the really bad comb-over on thedude who takes pictures. You're called up to do a handful of kicks, then you do two forms, pad up, spar for 30 seconds to a minute, then go break a plastic brick. The whole process takes about 10 minutes on a slow day. The great news is that there's a Starbucks at the bottom of the hill on the way to the kukkiwon, some good martial arts stores nearby, and a couple good beer stops on the way to the subway. The bottom line is that I've never seen anywhere any requirement for one steps. By the way, I see you're a pentagon bubba. Good on ya! 3+ years there took 20 years off my life! Hang in there! Kip >From: "Boit Clinton Capt AF/DPMP" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] One steps >Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:10:47 -0400 > >Um...of course our school still practices traditional one steps. How many >TKD >schools out there give Kukkiwon certification (75%+)? Well, one steps are >a >requirement to get Kukkiwon certification. > >No matter what the training is there is value added by practicing something >whether the benefit is conditioning, balance, power generation, or self >defense. If someone is so closed minded and don't see the value in >practicing >something unless it is actual "realistic combat" (which we all have views >on >what that is), then that person should look at it again and see what in it >is >beneficial... >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:46:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Samurang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For my part I wouldn't mind hearing from someone who has some credentials regarding the use of this term. As far as using the term "ryu" during the Japanese Occupation I think I am safe in saying that there was a LOT of Japanese things going on in Korea at the time. I continue to hold that citing a well-known individual such as Hwang Kee to some how authenticate the use of a term because HE used it does not legitimize the practice. Anymore than identifying oneself as a Hapkido practitioner without valid vitae validates THAT practice. Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:52:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Samurang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael: I can't speak for GM Ji making any comment on the samurai/samurang thing. I just need to know the characters he identified to justify his remarks. Seems to me this whole issue was already examined and discredited on a couple of other Nets, yes? As far as Lees' comments about the Samurai/Samurang, well, wasn't he the same guy who identified himself as the 58th GM of some lineage going back to the HwaRang Warriors? I'm still waiting for the provenance for that assertion. Of course, this may all just come down to what people want to believe versus what is historically accurate. Unless I miss my guess folks prefer their illusions to the facts the better part of the time. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 From: tntcombatives@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 02:45:45 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] gun stats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I recall a few years back watching the police chiefs of Seattle(?) and Vancouver BC on CNN or one of the cable news programs....it was a while ago, my memory has faded. In the segment, they compared and collaborated on a comparison study on their respective metro areas. The gun deaths in Vancouver were exponentially smaller when compared to that of Seattle. That is the thing that Canada can really boast about. The chiefs also compared the rate of club/bat and knife incidents. The Vancouver metro area had an alarmingly higher knife assault rate, almost inverse to that of Seattle's gun rate. No guns, use a knife or a bat. You can ban whatever weapon you want. If you ban guns, the weapon of choice will be whatever is next on the effective scale. Think about it....do you really believe you have less assaults w/o the guns? No. The assaults are just less deadly, but they still exist in the same numbers. -- Mark Gajdostik --__--__-- Message: 10 From: tntcombatives@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 02:48:53 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] HKD/JJ/groundfighting - Nampa Idaho. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One of my former students contacted me wondering if I knew a good groundfighting/JJ/HKD type school in or around Nampa Idaho that has knowledge of law enforcement use of the arts. I did not have a clue. Anyone have any ideas? Contact me off list if you wish. Thanks. -- Mark Gajdostik TNT-Police Combatives 503-887-9351 --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 02:56:25 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] the two step about one step Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net J writes: I think you need to be slightly more introspective and less thrilled about too much "realistic" training off the bat.>> Ummm, "thrilled about realistic training..no.. ummm not burying my head in the sand and following something I know is handicapping someone when it comes to self defense...yes" Let me try some introspection here if I may: The standard reverse punch from a static linear approach was invented in Karate to punch people with armor... don't have those around anymore... Every person with a little gray matter can throw a jab-cross combo in a fight and usually do.. Sooo I should have my begginers practice against a scenario that won't happen to build up the subtle nuances involved in one step sparring? I would rather challenge them to learn how to move dynamically from the beginning than have them learn a set of static one steps that I will have to change over later when they get better? So I will have to defrag them to add a new set of ingrained movements.... I have coached football and wrestling for many many years and IMHO what you describe is called in the coaching field as "training a winner to be a loser". You want to train a person to see in practice what they will face in battle or on the field of play. In coaching defensive linebackers and defensive lineman I watch film of our opponent everyweek and then you game plan and come up with a complete strategy to defeat your opponent and believe me the plan is VERY physical. I see martial arts the same way. I look at what people are using to attack you with and how they will move when they attack you and then I "game plan" my Hapkido students to be able to defeat their opponent. IMHO it is really common sense without wearing blinders. What you describe about one step sparring would be like watching a really good power running offense and then having my defensive guys to learn how to defend againts a passing team. They would lose because of my strategy. People need to learn NOW not later. I think that people have the capacity to learn more and move better then some instructors give them credit for. I am not pushing them too far but yes I am pushing them and they get confused and make mistakes...good.. then we can fix things...going slow and robotic and using a set of movements that statistics show isn't gonna happen, I think that is either negligence or just laziness on the instructors part, chanllenge YOURSELVES as instructors also, experiment, become a mad scientist and watch the results, I think you owe it to your students. You want to hear something else I do that is also a faux pa? I let my white belts and green belts train with dan bongs and knives everyday in Hapkido class right from the beginning. I like them getting used to the weapons early and use the weapons to get them used to seeing and using weapons. I also think it builds their confidence, timing, and angling ability. I know,, I shouldn't do that until 2nd degree black belt.. but come on,, experiment,, try things out, push the box... are you trying to help your people or milk them for money? Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:50:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Burton Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Samurang To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir A quick check for Samurang on wordiq yields the following: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Samurang A few interesting points that can be gleaned from this. Haidong Gumbo maintains that Samurang was a Goguryeo term for warriors that was transfered to Japan via a warrior diaspora. The Goguryeo dynasty refers to the period 37 BC-AD 668. This same period in Japan is the pre-Heian period. This period of Japanese history is distinctly different militarily from the more commonly perceived Tokugawa period, and is typified by the Japanese army following the Chinese model. This is relevant as there were no Samurai classes in this time. Rather all able bodied men were required to enlist, and were refered to as Sakimori (defenders). The term Samurai, in fact, did not even come into use until the nearly the time of Tokugawa shogunate (1615 - 1868). Prior to this (from around the 11th century) the term for the Warrior caste was Saburai, from the classical verb Saburau (lit. To Serve). These were guards of the imperial palace and the private clans (who became the Daimyo). The main arguments levied for the Samurang argument centre on the Korean pronunciation of the following three characters: http://tinypic.com/en4mx In Korean this reads as Samurang - which does sound very like Samurai, and indeed means the same thing in both languages. However, in traditional Japanese this would be read as saburau which is a progressed reading of the root of the word Samurai - Samorafu. The progression in pronounciation is: Century 6th 11th 16th samorafu¨saburafu/saburafi¨saburai¨samurai 'Saburafu' means 'serving the high class.' 'Saburafi' is derived from 'Saburafu' and means 'serving the host or the server' The progression from saburafi¨saburai then can be seen as the progression of the concept of serving being extended from serving at a table to serving someone with your weapon, i.e. being an indentured member of a warrior class. I wonder if it is not the similarities in the languages, that causes the confusion. It is clear that just because the three characters above are pronounced Samurang in Korean, it does not follow that Samurang is the root of Samurai. Even a casual investigation into the etymology of Samurai reveals this. I personally do not believe that Samurang is the root of Samurai, and believe that I have shown why this is not the case. The real confusion lies in the pronounciation of Chinese ideograms. Both cultures have inherited pronounciation from China, hence the similiar sounding readings of the same Kanji. It is only by looking at the origins of a word, and it's historical application that we can determine the real truth. Best Regards Neil Burton --- michael tomlinson wrote: > Bruce writes: > And what about those folks who talk about the term > "samurai" stemming from "samurang"? > > Those folks would be Doju Nim Ji Han Jae... for some > reason I tend to listen > to him and his take on ancient Korean philosopy, I > don't know why, surely he > couldn't actually know something about the > subject...huh...I guess next time > we should listen to who instead?? > > > Michael Tomlinson > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! > Download today - it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 00:41:43 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ray Terry...one step Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, Yes, Sir, the one steps come from each of the five Pyung Ahn forms. There is a planned series of attack moves which are defended against utilizing various techniques from the forms. These defense techniques are in sequence with the form.ie:(the movements are in the same order when you defend as they are in the form). In our federation this is practiced from Cho Dan and up in rank. Kicho one step and advanced one step is for tenth thru first gup.( although one is ALWAYS responsible for ALL previously learned material) Anyway, getting back to the Pyung Ahn one steps, they show some of the less obvious combat applications of these forms. For me to describe these here would be a gargantuan post as these take up much of my instructor's manual. One steps in general: I believe that these show the student(any level) SOME NOT ALL the possibilities for using the techniques available within whatever art one is affiliated with. I myself was sorely lacking in imagination when I started in TSD(still am) and greatly appreciated the opportunity to learn at least SOME combinations I could use. As skill levels increase and the student learns confidence with given techniques, I think they develop their own preferences and combinations for free sparring in accordance with their physical abilities and knowledge of techniques. I remain, Sir, Respectfully yours, George _________________________________________________________________ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 01:07:05 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Ryu Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know Grandmaster Kim (Pyung) Soo calls the name of his style "Cha-yon Ryu". Hummm.... that's several native Korean's that have used that term incorrectly ;-) Mac ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:56:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ryu To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net And don't we use words like "faux pas" and "rendevous?" That must make us ignorant English speakers? :) Not really making a point one way or another, just humor. Jeremy Anderson. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest