Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:20:13 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #460 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Test at the Kukkiwon (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 2. Ryu (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. Why (Robert Martin) 4. you say samurai, I say samurang, let's call the whole thing off (Burdick, Dakin R) 5. Tests (Ray Terry) 6. Fluency, was Ryu (Ray Terry) 7. Why (Dennis McHenry) 8. Re: Why (Ray Terry) 9. Martial Arts Hall of Fame (Chris and Cindy) 10. gun stats (Brian Beach) 11. Re: gun stats (Ray Terry) 12. Re: Samurang (Bruce Sims) 13. talk.politics.guns (Ray Terry) 14. looking for dojang in/around springfield, mo (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 15. RE: foreign terms (Howard Spivey) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:03:24 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Test at the Kukkiwon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have never been part of a testing at the kukkiwon, but would like to express the testing procedures of the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan for comparison. All Gup level test are conducted by instructors with either Kyo Sa or Sa Bom certification through the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan federation. The test may last anywhere from 30 min for a new white belt to 3 hours for a Red belt. All material is required not just what they learned for the particular rank they are testing for. One steps are required ,the number of techniques depends on how many they have learned. All basic hand and foot techniques are required, all forms, one steps, ho sin sul, sparring and breaking. There is also an oral examination about history, terminology etc. Dan test are held regionally; They are conducted by certified Sa Bom instructors within the particular region they train. The test board consist of approx 10 to 20 Sa Boms. Prior to testing, Dan candidates are required to write (4) 2000 word essay's about Soo Bahk Do history, Moo Duk Kwan history, characteristics of particular hyungs, personal motivations for training etc. The test is approx 8 hours of physical demonstration of required material. No rest breaks are given, and students are expected to be prepared. mentally and physically to endure the test. All rank is issued by the Moo Duk Kwan and was until 2002 signed by GM Hwang Kee him self, Certificates are now signed by HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim. Each passing student receives a Dan Number. This Moo Duk Kwan Dan Number system is unbroken since Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim began it with his first black belt. Kyo Sa and Sa Bom are total separate testings and are not awarded due to rank levels alone. Mater level test are conducted by GM HC Hwang only, with the help of some senior Moo Duk Kwan members. The test is a week long. Essays are also required although they are much more involved. At a Ko Dan Ja Shim Sa (Masters test) everyone is tested 24 hours a day not just on physical ability but conduct, protocol, endurance, teaching ability etc (every master candidate has to teach a class in front of HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim and is later critiqued. Physical training begins at 6am and goes until approx 12am with breaks for breakfast lunch and dinner and occasional breaks for restroom and hydration, at the end of the day (12am) candidates are given a written assignment to be completed by the next morning. This causes sleep deprivation and in my opinion weeds out those that don't want it bad enough. So to hear this post about the Kukkiwon I hope it is not true, but if it is I am disappointed. Test are designed to test you. JC --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:06:30 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ryu Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net FWIW Grandmaster Hwang Kee was fluent in Japanese as well as being a native Korean. JC --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:28:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Why Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I thought it was that we had the right to arm bears! Learn something new everyday. Just some humor tossed at what is otherwise a touchy subject. Robert Martin > Message: 2 > From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" > > To: > Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:13:17 -0500 > Subject: [The_Dojang] Why > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Because its our constitutional right to bear arms. > I believe that guns don't > kill people, people kill people. > > JC --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:03:10 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] you say samurai, I say samurang, let's call the whole thing off Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Neil Burton talked about Samurang & Samurai... >The term Samurai, in fact, did not even come into use until the nearly the time of Tokugawa shogunate (1615 - 1868). Prior to this (from around the 11th century) the term for the Warrior caste was Saburai, from the classical verb Saburau (lit. To Serve). These were guards of the imperial palace and the private clans (who became the Daimyo). Good point. But the Tokugawa period is a big one, can we narrow it down even more? After all, the start of the period was just after the unsuccessful assault on Korea by Japan. We find at: http://www.koreasociety.org/KS_curriculum/HS/2/2-text/2_182.htm "From 1592 to 1598, Japanese forces devastated Korea. When they finally withdrew, the invaders seized whole villages of Korean potters and other skilled artisans. They took the captives home to improve the Japanese pottery industry. The captive Koreans were forced to live in isolated areas and forbidden to marry into Japanese families. In their new villages, Korean artisans created their own unique pottery and helped establish the ceramics industry for which Japan would become famous. Pottery with Japanese names such as Satsuma and Arita, prized by museums around the world today, originated with Korean potters taken to Japan in the late 16th century and their descendants." Add to this the fact that some of the sacred symbols of Japan (sword and jewel, for example) came from Korea, and you begin to see a pattern of Korean influence in Japan. The Japanese don't admit this of course, but it still can be discovered. I'm always amused to read Japanese history and find ancient Korean relics being framed as ancient Japanese relics. We all agree that there was a substantional Sino-Korean influence on the formation of Japan during the Kofun period, right? Here's another sample: http://www.asjapan.org/Lectures/2002/Lecture/lecture-2002-9.htm "The earliest form of sword was the chokuto (straight sword) of the 8th century, examples of which are kept in the Shosoin in Nara; it seems that they were imported from the continent, and no sword-making technique had yet developed in Japan. By the end of the 10th century, however, Chinese and Korean swordsmiths were at work in Japan. This was the period when power was passing from the aristocrats to the Bushi, the forerunners of whom were disaffected aristocrats who left Kyoto and seized power in the country areas, and the sword became not only the main weapon but also the status symbol of the Bushi. It was at this stage that the Japanese sword took on its characteristic shape and became known for the high quality of its materials and its forging, and such prized swords were so well cared for that many are still extant and in good condition today." More on this kind of thing can be found at: http://homepage.mac.com/brucecaron/CDP/Output/D14.html Neil says, "In Korean this reads as Samurang - which does sound very like Samurai, and indeed means the same thing in both languages. However, in traditional Japanese this would be read as saburau which is a progressed reading of the root of the word Samurai - Samorafu. The progression in pronounciation is: Century 6th 11th 16th samorafu¨saburafu/saburafi¨saburai¨samurai"" So in other words, in the 6th century when Japan was most influenced by Korea and China, the term was samorafu, which later became samurai, right? Doesn't that lend credence to the opposing view, that samurai is at least related to Samurang, and that both have a Sino-Korean origin? Jeremy Anderson made a great point: >And don't we use words like "faux pas" and "rendevous?" To which I might add that tacos and chimichangas and margueritas have become a lot more popular in the U.S. in the last 40 years. I wonder why? The amusing thing in all this? In 1990 when I was saying that t'aekwondo was derived from Japanese karate, everyone said I was a Japanese stooge. I wonder what they're saying now? :) Yours in the arts, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Tests Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > .. Test are designed to test you. Unfortunately tests are primary used these days to generate more income for the instructor. Afterall, what should really count is how well the student performs in class, and out of it, day after month after year. Not on how well they do during the few mins/hours/days it takes to complete a test. imho Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Fluency, was Ryu Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > FWIW Grandmaster Hwang Kee was fluent in Japanese as well as being a native > Korean. A question... Weren't most basically educated, or better, Koreans of Hwang Kee's generation fluent in Japanese (due to the occupation)? This isn't really related to the ryu thread, just a question on my part. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:28:55 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Why Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The second amendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." JC wrote: Because its our constitutional right to bear arms. So you must be in the Militia then, right? I didn't think we still had a Militia, since we have an armed forces protecting "the security of a (our) free State". So if you aren't in the Militia, then you don't have a Constitutional right to bear arms. This doesn't mean I don't think American's should be able to own arms, I do, and own some myself. I just disagree the the Constitution gives you the right unless you are in the 'Militia'. ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Why To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > So you must be in the Militia then, right? I didn't think we still had a > Militia, since we have an armed forces protecting "the security of a (our) > free State". > > So if you aren't in the Militia, then you don't have a Constitutional right > to bear arms. > > This doesn't mean I don't think American's should be able to own arms, I do, > and own some myself. I just disagree the the Constitution gives you the > right unless you are in the 'Militia'. The Federal code (Title 10) specifies an organized militia and an unorganized militia. We are, by definition, part of the unorganized militia. Actually the def of the unorganized militia in the Federal Code excludes those under 17 and over 45, so I'm safe... :) But also...it is of great interest to read how the BoR was written and editted. Take a look at the early versions, before editor's pen came into play. Also look at the later writings of the founding fathers about the process of writing the Constutition and the BoR and the discussions they had during that process. The 2nd is really two thoughts/points editted down into one. It is this editting process that has caused some confusion thru the years. But this is a KMA forum... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:02:19 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Chris and Cindy Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts Hall of Fame Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I had a message on my voice mail today that kind of surprised me. It was form the "Martial Arts Hall Of Fame", or so the message said. This was a prerecorded, generic message stating that I have been offered the opportunity to be inducted into the hall of fame. Since I have done nothing spectacular in the wide world of martial arts this has raised a red flag in my mind. Plus, it was a generic message without my name mentioned one time, raising more flags. I deleted the message so I may not have the following information 100% correct. But, I think they were located in one of the Carolinas and the person I was to contact was Jim Thomas. Does anyone know anything about this group? Did I do the right thing by deleting the message and choosing not to pursue it? -Chris --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Brian Beach Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:39:08 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] gun stats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Umm - isn't this a positive thing? less deadly = less deaths On Oct 28, 2004, at 11:10 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > The assaults are just less deadly, but they still exist in the same > numbers. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] gun stats To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Umm - isn't this a positive thing? less deadly = less deaths > > > The assaults are just less deadly, but they still exist in the same > > numbers. Were that actually the case, perhaps. But then there is so very much more to consider. Back to KMA.?.?. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 14:53:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Samurang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Neil: ".....The real confusion lies in the pronounciation of Chinese ideograms. Both cultures have inherited pronounciation from China, hence the similiar sounding readings of the same Kanji. It is only by looking at the origins of a word, and it's historical application that we can determine the real truth...." Well done. Very neat and tidy. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] talk.politics.guns Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Folks, Let us try to get back onto KMA/MA discussions. Yes, I know I have posted an off-topic msg/reply or two, but that is beside the point. :) Please go to talk.politics.guns or some other appropriate forum to discuss the benefits, if any, of excessive gun control. Thx. Ray "Lifetime NRA Member" Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:11:03 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] looking for dojang in/around springfield, mo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net hi folks, sad to say a 2.5 year long student of mine is moving. she's heading to southern missouri and will be living in marshfield, which is apparently 20 mins out of springfield. she's willing to head to the "big city" to take classes. wants to stay in korean martial arts, preferably tkd or hkd. any help would be appreciated. thanks, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy _www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply _www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:55:14 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: foreign terms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "And don't we use words like "faux pas" and "rendevous?" That must make us ignorant English speakers? :) Not really making a point one way or another, just humor." actually, i think you've made a very good point... most, if not all, languages incorporate words from other languages that become standardized speech. you cite two valid examples. there must be hundreds... here's just one that comes to mind... "boondocks"... as in "down in the boondocks"... a filipino word (mountain) that entered the english language (at least the american version). today, look at all of the spanish words that are becoming mainstream american english, due simply to the influx of spanish speakers. given this context, why would it seem strange that the korean language would borrow "ryu" from japanese? or words from chinese? --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest