Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 16:34:02 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #462 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. (no subject) (Wilson, Byron) 2. Re: ancient Korean arts (Robert Demers) 3. Ko Dan Ja (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 4. Korean nomenclature rocks! (Burdick, Dakin R) 5. Test (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 6. language (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 7. Byron Wilson - re: Laura Clements/Haidong Gumdo (A. Boyd) 8. samurang / samurai (A. Boyd) 9. Bruce/Linguistics (Frank Clay) 10. testing (J R Hilland) 11. kukkiwon requires one steps? (J R Hilland) 12. Should instructors spar with their students? (Patrick Baeder) 13. Martial Arts Software... (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 14. Re: Re: ancient Korean arts (Ray Terry) 15. Re: Should instructors spar with their students? (Martin Von Cannon) 16. RE: Re: Ranting on the Kukkiwon (Kip McCormick) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 07:44:56 -0400 From: "Wilson, Byron" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I noticed that the Battle of Columbus (OH) is listed in the sporting events list offered on the digest. For some reason (speculation abounds) the Arnold Fitness Classic is also offering a wide martial arts program in conjunction with their show. The "Battle" used to be at the Arnold Classic in early March. However, GM Choi has moved it to June. Therefore, Arnold and GM Choi will both have events in March and June, 2005 respectively. Byron C. Wilson Director, Facilities Management Division Ohio Judicial Center 65 South Front Street Columbus, Ohio 43215 (614) 387-9300 wilsonb@liberty.sconet.state.oh.us --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Robert Demers" To: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 07:50:26 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ancient Korean arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "And yes there was a Japanese art of Just associated with the use of > firearms, Jujutsu (techniques of gunnery). OK - it's not a Korean art > you say? But do like so many other Korean 'masters' have done and take > the art from the Japanese change it a bit and rename it claiming it to > be an ancient Korean arts that has just been discovered or has remained > a closely guarded secret until someone has just been persuaded to teach > for the first time in public. (flame retardant on) " > > Can you provide any names of 'masters' that have done what you claim and also > what type of evidence do you have that proves this? In other words is this > real or just another opinion? >Gen. Choi and the ancient art of Taekwondo. Dr. JB Lee and the ancient >art of Hwarangdo. The list goes on... >Ray Terry Ray, can you tell me which Japenese art General Choi based Tae Kwon Do on? I just read two books on it and one said it was based on Tae Kyon and the other said it based on a mixture of karate and Tae Kyon. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:46:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ko Dan Ja Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris As far as I know HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim does attend all Ko Dan Ja test. The next test in Korea is in October of 2005 an I know he will be there because I myself was invited to test by him. I know he also attends the Eruo Test, and earlier this year conducted a test in Argintina (South America) The US test has many international guest as I am sure the other test do. When I last tested in 2000 there were several members testing from Mexico and England JC --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:57:14 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean nomenclature rocks! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: >Are folks being serious about this or are you just making conversation? I'm not sure what you are talking about here Bruce. >However, we are speaking of a specific nomeclature regarding a specific activity. Which activity? >The Korean nation has its own nomenclature for its arts and martial traditions. Why would people want to borrow Japanese, or English or Thai words for things for which there are Korean terms? Hoo boy, does it ever! [insert tongue in cheek] Why use "Karate" for Korean words like "kongsudo" and "tangsudo?" I think this is simply a failure of the rest of the world to recognize the Koguryo, Paekche and Silla, the ancient Korean kingdoms, invented just about everything and that the Chinese and Japanese are just copycats and idea thieves. [extract tongue] Sorry! Couldn't resist! Yours in mudo, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:09:26 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Test Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Terry I agree that unfortunately test these days have become a money machine for instructors. I also agree that how a student performs in the days/months/years of training should be the goal, however unless a test is structure to TEST the students it severs no purpose. The test should be designed to challenge the student to the very edge of their ability mentally and physically. If it does not then it is not a TEST. If a student passes the test then new goals are set by the student and new material is taught by the instructor and preparation begins for the nest test. This helps create growth. Simply demonstrating a few techniques for an instructor or two, breaking a board, and doing a form, is not a test for most students. After a test like that students are glad to get a new rank but they don't have the same since of pride, confidence, and accomplishment that a student has after truly being TESTED. "Steel is forged by throwing it into the fire" JC --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:11:26 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] language Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Terry You are correct that most of the older generations in Korea speak Japanese to some degree. JC --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:30:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Byron Wilson - re: Laura Clements/Haidong Gumdo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Byron, I'm glad to hear that there are some new Haidong Gumdo-in on the list. I am familiar with Laura Clements, but I don't think we've actually met in person. The foreign teams were on really tight schedules this year. Still we may have bumped into one another at some stage of things and didn't realize it. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:43:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] samurang / samurai Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net RE: samurang and samurai I am not a linguist so I tend to stay out of these debates. I feel that cultural cross-pollination is unavoidable. Dakin's points are excellent on how these words could be connected yet different. The earlier explanation (sorry your name has slipped my mind) relating the meanings, development, pronunciation, and appearances of samurang/samurai in Korea and Japan, is equally well put together. I'm particularly pleased to see these two posts as they succinctly lay out elements of the problem and cite references. I wish that all such discussions would go this way! Thanks gents! I have to tell you, as a student of Haidong Gumdo, I get a little tired of hearing it related to the samurai. The art stands on its own merits and its practitioners' technical proficiency. Nothing else is needed. Why other arts feel the need to dredge up a term like samurang is even more beyond me. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:46:21 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce/Linguistics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce << Why would people want to borrow Japanese, or English or Thai words for things for which there are Korean terms? Now, if you want to practice Karate, and that style belongs to a particular Ryu and you are beholding to a soke and train under a hanshi, it makes perfect sense. I guess I am just wondering about why everyone is so keen on corrupting things with foreign words at some points and using Korean terms at other points when there are Korean terms for everything given that its a Korean art, yes?>> I think that we have established that there are two types of bleed-over. The first type is because of words that have been borrowed by the Koreans themselves. The word ryu was used, and was a great example. The second form of bleed over is usually from non-native speakers and is used either because the user doesn't know any better (hardly their fault) or because the user wants to assume some title or some such that they have no idea what it is supposed to mean. That being said, why on earth would you let this get to you? It is not like you are KMA police and have any control over it. I think that maybe letting this go, would be good for your practice, and might be an excellent Buddhist practice as well. Now before you start getting all rambunctious on me, this is just a question and has no hidden value or intent. f. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 09:55:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net VERY well said Ray! A experienced instructor knows exactly what rank the student is long before any formal belt test. I certainly would not let one of my students teach if I thought he/she was not perfectly capable of testing their own students. Sure I have to travel to the other side of the country to see my teacher, as that is where he is, but my students should not HAVE to travel for a recognition of the rank their technique already represents. I sadly remember the days when a belt test was like going to boot camp. I am way to old such nonsense, so are some of my students. But financial gains are the driving force behind many belt organizational testing rules and regulations. I think many have forgotten that it is not about the destination but about the journey. Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:01:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] kukkiwon requires one steps? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Remember I am a hapkidoin, but I do remember a well respected taekwondo instructor in Cincinnati telling me about 5 years ago that taekwondo 1 and 3 steps were taught to children only. Maybe it was something that he only did in his dojang. I don't know. Did not really care, so I admit I did not pay much attention to the details of the conversation. Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Patrick Baeder Organization: Auburn Academy of Martial Arts, LLC To: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:15:24 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Should instructors spar with their students? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Respected Dojang Members, I would like to know the opinions of the Digest on what are the pros and cons of instructors sparring with their students? Thanks, Patrick Baeder --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 10:28:28 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts Software... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone know of any Martial Arts software that is web enabled? Ie. you use it from a web page as opposed to loading the software on one single machine? Thanks, Jason --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: ancient Korean arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ray, can you tell me which Japenese art General Choi based Tae Kwon Do on? Japanese Karate-do. Some state that Gen. Choi reached 2nd Dan in this art. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Should instructors spar with their students? From: "Martin Von Cannon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hmmm...Well lets see. Pros: 1. The student will be able to spar against someone better than they are (or should be). 2. The teacher will be able to better judge sparring technique. 3. The teacher will be able to demonstrate "holes" to the student. Cons: Aside from a potential Ego flare up if the instructor gets hit, I can't really think of any. Personally I spar will all of my students. Sometimes en mass, other times one on one. It has improved my sparring as well as theirs. -- Martin Von Cannon Instructor Tacoma, WA. Dojang A Black Belt is more than something you wear. It's more than something you earn. A Black Belt is something you become. > Respected Dojang Members, > > I would like to know the opinions of the Digest on what are the pros and > cons of instructors sparring with their students? > > Thanks, > > Patrick Baeder --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Ranting on the Kukkiwon Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:23:32 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Melinda- You are correct -- the kukkiwon website does show one-step techniques. My point is that those one steps are not required by the kukkiwon to advance in rank. That's up to the individual instructor. My secondary point remains: kukkiwon tests in Seoul are lame at best. 10-15 minutes to test for an advancement at the black belt level? Why do it? It's a "check the block" to satisfy ego? No, in my opinion, it makes key leadership at the kukkiwon rich and that's about it (or it makes instructors who charge an exhorbitant amount of $$$ for a certificate rich -- your kukkiwon 1st dan costs about $100 for foreignors, about $35 for native koreans if you test right there -- I'd be interested to hear how many folks on the dd paid more than that for their first dans with kukkiwon certs in the states or elsewhere). In fact, I'll go one step further and throw out this to my warrior brothers and sisters on the dojang digest: the coveted "kukkiwon" certification is a crock of crap. I've seen incredibly lame martial artists testing for high ranks (4th, 5th dan, AND HIGHER) at the kukkiwon who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag with a blow torch. Don't get me wrong: there are some great martial artists who have tested there, and I've seen them, too. On the other hand, one of the best martial artists I've had to fight and train under was a taekwondo practitioner with NO kukkiwon or ITF certification, just blood, sweat and tears under a solid tkd instructor for many, many years. My problem with the kukkiwon is that millions of dollars annually blow into the place for a certificate whose meaning, to me, is meaningless. I'm a soldier in the army and over the past 21+ years of martial arts (taekwondo and hapkido) I've had to change schools about every two years. I've been a black belt w/o kukkiwon certification and I've had to re-start my training (black belt to white belt) on several occasions because I didn't have that coveted certificate. I'm now a 3d dan by kukkiwon standards only because when I lived in Korea for several years, my Korean master thought it was a crime that I didn't have the certification from the kukkiwon. I'm done now as a tkd 4th dan (I stopped with the kukkiwon at 3d dan). What matters is skill and ability. I'm happily sticking with hapkido for good and have no desires to get back into the WTF world where politics rule, proper techniques drool. And I know I'll hear the same mantra I've heard for years: "You need to have an internationally recognized body to ensure techniques are done properly, blah blah blah." Or "don't criticize the store about bad goods, go directly to the factory." Guys, go to ANY U.S. military base in Korea, do your nine months, and you'll get a black belt in taekwondo. We've taken an incredible martial art and cheapened it at best with our focus on the kukkiwon and the need to have its blessing in WTF taekwondo. It disgusts me. Kip >i dont believe its required, but its part of the curriculum. you can find >the one steps in the kkw text and on the kkw website. > >take care, >melinda > > >Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy >_www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 >Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply >_www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. 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