Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 07:01:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #467 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: re: Should instructors spar with their students? (Patrick Baeder) 2. saying (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. Hwang Kee (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 4. Re:Pyongyang Times (Bruce Sims) 5. Gladewater.......saying (Donne Flanagan) 6. RE: ITF Saga (Robert Martin) 7. Re: Testing (Klaas Barends) 8. Testing (J R Hilland) 9. NC Schools (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 10. Saying (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 11. Re: re: Should instructors spar with their students? (Martin Von Cannon) 12. Re: re: Should instructors spar with their students? (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Patrick Baeder Organization: Auburn Academy of Martial Arts, LLC To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re: Should instructors spar with their students? Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:06:20 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Members, I think that I should elaborate on my original question to the group regarding "should instructors spar with students?" and give a little more background on myself and school. I own a small dojang that has been open for about almost two and half years. At 4th Dan, I am the school's chief instuctor. Since the school has been open less than 2 and a half years, my most senior students are just starting to close in on 1st dan. Therefore, when I spar, I spar with white belt through 1st gup students. I know quite well that when a student spars the instructor, it raises the bar for the student. Unfortunately, I feel that the opposite is also true. Since I primarily spar beginners, I feel that I have been sparring at a beginner level. It doesn't do my students a lot of good to see some fancy technical kick that lands across their face so I don't practice those more advanced techniques with opponents. What I am really asking is, am I doing myself more harm than good by sparring beginners all the time? With respect, Patrick Baeder From: Bert Edens Date: 2004/11/01 Mon AM 09:47:18 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] re: Should instructors spar with their students? At 17:34 10/29/04, you wrote: >From: Patrick Baeder >Organization: Auburn Academy of Martial Arts, LLC >Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 11:15:24 -0400 > >Respected Dojang Members, >I would like to know the opinions of the Digest on what are the pros and >cons of instructors sparring with their students? >Thanks, >Patrick Baeder Greetings, sir... I don't know if I fall under the "respected" umbrella, but I will respond just the same... :) Pros: - Student gets to spar with a much higher rank, therefore able to learn more and at a better pace than by sparring peers in rank. - Instructor can see where the student is and specifically test their response to particular actions - Experience, experience, experience. As long as it's not dangerous, it's still practice. - Student learns to spar advanced ranks and overcomes fears, apprehension, etc., in the process. Cons: - Only one I could think of would be a corollary to the last one above: Sometimes sparring your instructor can be intimidating. But the learning process is well worth it... I guess you can see where I stand, huh? :) I definitely encourage it. I know that by sparring my instructor from the get-go (yellow belt in our school) when he was a 4th dan (now 5th), I got a very good head-start on sparring, especially as it relates to tournaments. Not only did I get the advice and instruction that was invaluable, I also got to the point that a competitor of the same rank was not to be feared... At least not compared to a 4th dan with a VERY fast lead jab :) Hope this helps! <> - Bert Edens, 2nd Dan Springdale, Arkansas _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:00:12 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] saying Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I heard a Marine DI say it about a thousand times. JC --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:17:12 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwang Kee Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Come-on!! Are you comparing Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim to the hundreds of self promoted grandmaster of today. It was not a ego thing with Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim. In 1949 when he wrote and published his first martial arts manual he is pictured wearing a White Belt. That was a different time "I hope you get my point" JC --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:03:46 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Pyongyang Times Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....This means that Ancient Korea was built in the similar period with the ancient states in the Nile Basin and Mesopotamia that are worldly known as cradlelands of human civilization and predated those in the Indus and Yellow River basins. Therefore, it was the first state in the East. With the appearance of Tangun Korea, more than a million-year-long primitive age gave way to the era of state and the Korean nation entered the era of civilization for the first time in the East....." I'd like to put in my order for a couple of ounces of whatever this guy was smoking. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Donne Flanagan" To: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:16:39 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Gladewater.......saying Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hold on to that Turtle Wax, bud. In this case, nine people are right and you, unfortunately, are not. >From Mr. Nietzsche's Twilight of the Idols: "Aus der Kriegsschule des Lebens. - Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker." Translation: "Out of life's school of war. - What does not destroy me, makes me stronger." This is usually quoted as: "That which does not kill me, makes me stronger". Goethe has many good quotes, too. But not this one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:17:23 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Gladewater.......saying Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Ohhhhhhh, sorry but you're going to have to settle for the year supply of Turtle Wax. "What does not kill me makes me stronger"...Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. But...9 out of 10 people think Neitzche said it. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Robert Martin" To: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 22:21:05 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: ITF Saga Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'll take a swipe at this one. Understand that I am not an official with the any of the ITF groups or the USTF. The ITF under General Choi and Master Choi Jung Hwa (his son) ruled that ITF Lifetime membership meant exactly that -- you are a member. However, all three of the ITF groups require you to be a member of a local (national) body. The NGB mentioned in Ray's post is the one for the ITF under the direct control of North Korea. I doubt if you could or would want to be a part of it. All three ITF groups have reps in the US. There is now a fourth (or fifth) group forming around GM Hwang of CT called United ITF. There is another group that formed last year around GM Kong Yong Il and GM Nam Te Hi called the ICTF. The USTF would consider you an inactive member. You could pay your $25 annual fee and become active again and your ITF rank would be recognized. GM Sereff resigned the USTF from the ITF soon after General Choi's passing. It is my own belief, now, that General Choi never intended the ITF to survive his passing. I believe that he understood that the Grand Masters would never follow his son -- for a verity of reasons; his son needed a job -- the only one he has every had; Gen Choi wanted to be buried in his homeland and the rest of us just needed to teach and study ITF TKD. In my view the reason that the problems in the TKD world (all versions of it) are so public is that TKD is huge. I suspect that there are far more people involved in it that any other art.Other arts are not with out problems. Just watch the Hap Ki Do fights that go on in the DD sometime. Just my 2 cents, Robert Martin V Dan USTF > So, my question is, if my instructor paid for my "Lifetime Membership" to > these organizations, are they still valid??? I have the cards, I have the > certificates, I have EVERYTHING. > > I was just hoping that someone who views this digest with the power to > research this kind of thing can help a dude out here. As always, I respect > and appreciate all replies, whether on the DD or in private. Thank you to > all. > > James Morgan > GTKDA > www.gtkda.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Klaas Barends Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:28:02 +0900 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A few things to keep in mind. If there is a real master/student relationship, I don't see the need for testing. The master and the student meet every day and practice with eachother. The master knows the students abbilities. So at a certain point he will say: You are a x-dan now. Usually the master will think for some time 'hmmm, my student is a x-dan now' and will give the dan some time after that. I don't think anyone is against this way of promoting. (when we presume the master is indeed a master) In the case however where the master does not test, but the master's master or some board of masters of a federation, I can see the need for more intensive testing. The examiners in this case don't know the student, haven't worked with him/her that much (or at all), so they will have to test his abbilities, because they don't know his/her abbilities. Asking everything from white belt up until the grade they are testing for, does not make sense to me. With the exception being forms. The way a black belt performs a form should be a miles apart from the way someone just testing for his green belt performs the same form. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ http://www.sangmookwan.com/ --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:38:32 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The 'practice' of hapkido has proven over the decades to be a great asset to someone with low self esteem and a lack of confidence. But, you are still missing the point here. So I will try to explain to you how the art works. Hapkido practice involves a partner for about the first 3000 times you do a technique. Hapkido is a 'hands on' self defense art. The techniques have been around a very long time. There is nothing to prove by forcing a technique and pushing yourself (in hapkido that would be using lots of strength). Once again, it is all about technique. If your technique is good, the response will be effortless. Hapkido training involves muscle memory. Repeating a technique so often that you do not have to think about it. The defense of an attack is automatic. Just like tying your shoes. Simply put, you don't not have time to respond by think about what you are going to do. You must be able to simply react, instinctively, through muscle memory - i.e.: repetitive training. Pushing a middle aged, or senior adult to the edge is not healthy. It may be good for the military, but you are talking about healthy, young adults only who have a completely different goal in their training than in a dojang. So that is comparing apples to oranges. In hapkido, if you tested someone for days, you would just simply wear out the students attacking. Very pointless. When I was younger, I used to have very rigid tests for my students. The pass rate was around 85%. I tested my students (a pre-test) and then sent them to my teachers dojang about 80 miles away for the test. One day, while visiting a pre-test at my dojang, he pulled me aside and told to test my own students, without sending them to his dojang, and to not be so hard as it was just wearing out their partner and proving nothing that they (or I), did not already know. That was 20 years ago. I continue to learn from my teacher and seniors. My teaching method and technique changes month to month, year after year, decade after decade. If I am not open minded and continuing to improve what is best for my students and to help me promote my chosen art, then I am just repeating the same year over and over. I know my own capabilities without standing on one leg. To help you understanding that it is the journey and not the destination, I will tell you what a priest once told me: "Once you are in the grave, you have a stone over you, it says when you were born, and when you passed on, but that simple dash (-) between the two dates, is what it is all about". Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:06:41 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] NC Schools Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tony Go to the web site www.soobahkdo.com click on federation and then on find a certified studio. There you can type in the state and it will give you a listing for all Soo bahk Do moo Duk Kwan schools in that state along with the instructors name, Studio address, phone number, and e-mail address if available. If you have any trouble let me know I can contact the instructors personally for you. JC --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:57:18 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Saying Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net People I said I believed a general said it but I was not sure of its origin. The point is the quote is profound. JC --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:40:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re: Should instructors spar with their students? From: "Martin Von Cannon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net That is a very different question. I believe you already know your answer. Spar with your senior students once in a while. Keep your edge. There is no reason why not to. They may not be as intimidated as a beginner, however, you still have some "tricks" up your sleeve and can pull them out when you need to. By all means, pull them out and dust them off. -- Martin Von Cannon Instructor Tacoma, WA. Dojang A Black Belt is more than something you wear. It's more than something you earn. A Black Belt is something you become. > Members, > > I think that I should elaborate on my original question to the group > regarding "should instructors spar with students?" and give a little more > background on myself and school. > > I own a small dojang that has been open for about almost two and half > years. At 4th Dan, I am the school's chief instuctor. > > Since the school has been open less than 2 and a half years, my most > senior students are just starting to close in on 1st dan. Therefore, when > I spar, I spar with white belt through 1st gup students. > > I know quite well that when a student spars the instructor, it raises the > bar for the student. Unfortunately, I feel that the opposite is also > true. Since I primarily spar beginners, I feel that I have been sparring > at a beginner level. It doesn't do my students a lot of good to see some > fancy technical kick that lands across their face so I don't practice > those more advanced techniques with opponents. > > What I am really asking is, am I doing myself more harm than good by > sparring beginners all the time? > > With respect, > Patrick Baeder --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:17:49 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re: Should instructors spar with their students? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This reminds me of my father who is this checkers king. He always says he doesn't like playing people who aren't good because it brings his game down. I don't think that is true. When you reach a level from doing something, you don't lose it. The only time you lose it is when you don't use it...and even then you don't lose the actual skill, you're just not as sharp as before. Yes you may raise the bar for your students, but it doesn't lower the bar for you. Now sometimes it may get a little boring sparring them because they if they are true beginners are lacking in some area whether it's aggresiveness, or actual fighting. But that's about it. eventually they'll adapt, and get better. Think of this. 5 students learn your style of martial arts. That means 5 individuals will interprete your system in their own ways, so what you'll eventually have is some future challenges on your hands. It's when the pupils make the material taught their own that you'll see a change in how you spar with them. Jye Jye Patrick Baeder wrote: Members, I think that I should elaborate on my original question to the group regarding "should instructors spar with students?" and give a little more background on myself and school. I own a small dojang that has been open for about almost two and half years. At 4th Dan, I am the school's chief instuctor. Since the school has been open less than 2 and a half years, my most senior students are just starting to close in on 1st dan. Therefore, when I spar, I spar with white belt through 1st gup students. I know quite well that when a student spars the instructor, it raises the bar for the student. Unfortunately, I feel that the opposite is also true. Since I primarily spar beginners, I feel that I have been sparring at a beginner level. It doesn't do my students a lot of good to see some fancy technical kick that lands across their face so I don't practice those more advanced techniques with opponents. What I am really asking is, am I doing myself more harm than good by sparring beginners all the time? With respect, Patrick Baeder --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest