Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:14:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #468 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Sparring beginners (Burdick, Dakin R) 2. Eating My Words While Doused in Turtle Wax (CStovall@nucorar.com) 3. RE: Hwang Kee (CStovall@nucorar.com) 4. Hwang Kee (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Sparring beginners (Jye nigma) 6. Tests (CStovall@nucorar.com) 7. Re: ranting on the kkw (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 8. Sparring Students (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 9. re: testing (Michael Whalen) 10. RE: Tests (Denise) 11. Testing (Gladewater SooBahkDo) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:01:07 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Sparring beginners Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye wrote: >This reminds me of my father who is this checkers king. He always says he doesn't like playing people who aren't good because it brings his game down. I don't think that is true. When you reach a level from doing something, you don't lose it. The only time you lose it is when you don't use it...and even then you don't lose the actual skill, you're just not as sharp as before. My response: Hmm. I think I agree with both of you on this one. Playing with top students can challenge one in both checkers and martial arts. I can see where playing someone who is not a challenge would not help your father maintain his edge in checkers. The difference between checkers and martial arts is that the rules in what we do are much more mutable. Playing with unskilled people is perhaps one of the most dangerous things you can do, and hence the most challenging. They are such an unknown quantity that they may just stick their fingers in your eyes out of instinct! I think that the middling students -- the first dans who are acclimatized to your system, are the least challenging. They hold themselves to the rules too much, and find it hard to think outside the box. Patrick's original question was about sparring beginners, and I'd have to say that yes, Patrick, if all you are doing is sparring beginners, you will not improve as quickly. I can see that in some of my hapkido buddies. I have been fortunate enough to have some very challenging students, and they have kept me on my toes. Some of my old friends have mostly beginners, and their skills have deteriorated as a result. This is one reason I tend to cross-train a lot -- finding a good martial artist is more important to me than sticking with a single art. Take care, Dakin dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:03:01 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Eating My Words While Doused in Turtle Wax Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok, ok, ok...it appears that they both are credited with having said this. Although, I can't find the exact citation for Goethe to save my life. Just for giggles...if I have all of my limbs amputated, and I survive the procedure...does that still make me stronger? Crummy German philosophers!!! CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:09:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hwang Kee Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think a straight answer from SOMEONE would help put this to rest. Who did Hwang Kee train under (read: who made sure that he underwent the proper "quality control" procedures), and who promoted him through the ranks. No agenda...just an honest question. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:56:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwang Kee Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Come-on!! Are you comparing Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim to the hundreds of self >promoted grandmaster of today. It was not a ego thing with Hwang Kee Kwan Jang >Nim. In 1949 when he wrote and published his first martial arts manual he is >pictured wearing a White Belt. That was a different time. (1) My point was simple. Who tested the testers? Just something to consider. (2) See pages 51 & 52 of the MDK little blue book. No white belt. (3) Fortunately, or unfortunately, we all have egos. Hwang Kee was no exception. Actually, if you interview those that studied under him back in the day you'll see that his ego was rather substantial. In hopefully closing this thread, a few might think that I seem to be against rigorous tests because I personally didn't suffer thru them. Actually the tests I endured were, umm, fun and exciting. I ended up with many fond memories and a few permanent injuries, but passed them all. But I'd rather see regular and rigorous classes instead of just overly brutal tests. The point is that as we have gotten away from beating our students with a bong (aka bo/staff) if their stance or technique isn't perfect, perhaps change should occur in other areas also. Just something to consider. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:32:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sparring beginners To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Burdick, Dakin R" wrote: Hmm. I think I agree with both of you on this one. Playing with top tudents can challenge one in both checkers and martial arts. I can see where playing someone who is not a challenge would not help your father maintain his edge in checkers. The difference between checkers and martial arts is that the rules in what we do are much more mutable. Playing with unskilled people is perhaps one of the most dangerous things you can do, and hence the most challenging. They are such an unknown quantity that they may just stick their fingers in your eyes out of instinct! I think that the middling students -- the first dans who are acclimatized to your system, are the least challenging. They hold themselves to the rules too much, and find it hard to think outside the box. I think the newcomer could also be a good thing, because they will attack almost without a particular martial logic. Not sure if that makes sense. But one similarity between martial arts and checkers is this statement my father says.... I asked him after watching him beat people left and right, how did he get so good. He simply said, it's not that I'm so good, I've just been playing this game for so long that you see 'scenarios'. Once you get familiar to the scenarios, you'll begin to see them in advanced...that is before they even occur, thus giving you control of the game. Sparring can be the same way. scenarios, even though everyone has their own flavor to sparring/fighting, it will all begin to become familiar territory. So with that said, in the martial arts we'll begin to see those who've been involved for some time operate seemingly from a familiar script, where the beginner who isn't familiar with this 'script' doesn't operate from it, and can possibly present another challenge. Jye --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a --__--__-- Message: 6 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:35:38 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Tests Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just had to weigh in on the issue of "to test, or not to test". It's my sincere opinion that tests were introduced as a revenue generating event by the prior generation of instructors. Unfortunately, the current generation seems to regard these procedures as venerated traditions. IMHO, if an instructor is worth his salt then he/she is intimately aware of where a student stands in terms of progress, and what they need to do in order to make further progress. If the instructor needs a "test" to find this out...then what in the world were they doing during the last 6-months? Sleeping in their office? If the instructor doesn't need a test to find this out (read: was holding up their end of the bargain), then why are they making their students get up early on a Saturday just to come in and do what everybody under the sun knows they can already do? Then again...it ain't my school. On the flip side, I know there are a lot of people that view tests as some kind of "baptism of fire". Been there, done that. I had an exam once that lasted over 10 hours. This wasn't one of those deals where you sit down for 9 hours and wait for the color belts to do their thing while you wait to get up and show off for 15 minutes. I was on the floor for the entire 10 hours. As much as I loved and respected the instructor, I believe he was just being a slave to tradition. That's the way he was brought up, and that's the way he was bringing us up. In the end, the test didn't prove a thing. It was the countless hours of training before the test that actually makes it possible for you to SURVIVE such a thing that matters. He would have never even have let me attempt it if he didn't think I was ready. So...what was the point? After it's all said and done, I can now brag to my peers about how I once took a 10 hour test. Oooooooooo, I'm such a tough guy (and $100 poorer)!!!! As humans, I believe we have a certain affinity for ceremony. This is one of the reasons I believe we hold onto such things as belt tests. It serves as a road marker that gives us psychological comfort. We can now say, "we've made it this far", or "this particular task/process/journey is now complete". Hope that makes sense. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:52:20 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ranting on the kkw Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Great post, Melinda. Thanks and keep training hard, and training your students to be hard! Kip _________________________ will do, sir! take care, mel :) Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy _www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply _www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:52:56 -0600 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Sparring Students Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Patrick, Sparring your students is not going to result in a decline in your abilities, based on my years of experience. And as many have already said, it will vastly improve your students. You are right, in that much of what you know or do will be lost on your students if you attempt to spar them on your level. What I have always tried to do is just be a little better than each student I sparred. So on any given night I was a little better than my white belts, all the way through my black belts. Doing this will not harm your ability unless you decide to spar with your contemporaries the same as you do with your students. When I spar with my students, I am focusing on what they need, not on how to hit them. After all, my purpose is to help them be better. If I spar someone of my own ability level, I am thinking about my strategy and what I am doing. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:12:10 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From what I've been reading people are being tested once. Then it's pass or fail. What about those days when you're "off" a little or maybe dealing with an injury. So, then it's "you fail, see you next year"? (This, of course doesn't apply to those who are always "on" or never get injured) At out dojang we test quarterly from 2-4 years and usually by the same group of instructors. They see you with and without injuries and on good days and bad. I was just wondering if there were any other arts that tested this way?..... michael "I've always been a little off" whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Denise" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Tests Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:51:55 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi All- How about this test? http://www.ultimateblackbelttest.com/ Whatever floats yer boat . . . defines yer character . . . makes you feel worthwhile . . . whatever . . . Some people just must live pretty superficial lives. Hardships are available to most of us (adults, at least) on any given day, aren't they? Thanks for all the postings about this "test" dilemma. I've been wrasslin' with the issue for my own students for a few years now. Your thoughts confirm my own wisdom (?:-) as I consider how to handle things in the future. We grew up with the SBDMDK traditional test process, which was then carried on in our next organization. My take is that one reason for the "big" organizational approach is standardization of technique. It seems to me that that approach diminishes the fundamental teacher/student relationship. Also, I wonder if the days-long tests really played to the original core market for the martial arts -- young adult men who hadn't been challenged by much hardship yet in their lives. Given the maturity of most practitioners today (the ones who aren't kids), who've been dealing with "putting one foot in front of the other" day in and day out, no matter how exhausted we are or how much pain we're in (physically, emotionally, spiritually) -- for so many years now, that the hype of the endurance test is actually pretty hard to swallow. Honestly seems pretty contrived to me. But then, like I said, there's challenges to be met every day -- if we're paying attention. Thinking about all those people in the world who are trying to figure out how they're going to feed their kids today or who might be saying a final "good bye" to their Mom or who don't have clean water to drink or whatever. Yeah, I need an 8 day test or an eco challenge to bring out the "warrior" in me. Puleeze . . . justDenise Just my $.03 (inflation, you know) on election day. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:05:56 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JR Hilland; I respect Hapkido and believe it helps people to gain confidence, and self-esteem. I think most martial arts do that. My point that you seemed to have missed is that when a new student enters you do-jang they have not idea what they are capable of. Like the White Belt represents the snow covering the potential growth that lies beneath, so is the student covered with uncertainty. They watch a Black belt class and say I could never do that, but in reality they probably can after years of training. As for being good for military what does martial mean. I am not suggesting that each student be tested the same. I understand that a 50 year old is not in the same physical shape as an 18 year old. The edge is different for each student. I do think the students should be pushed to there personal edge what ever that may be. Unless students have been pushed to the edge, they don't know were the edge is. I was recently selected to test at the next week long Ko Dan Ja Shim Sa, with the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk. there were 159 members eligible and only 52 selected, of that 52 I suspect only 20 will pass. What this will do is maintain a standard. Those 20 will represent the best of the best. The others will realize that if they intend to advance they will need to work harder. HC Hwang is the only person worldwide that can promote a person to any dan rank in the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. When you perform in front of him he made not have seen you for a while, you represent the art, your instructor and yourself. To pass such a test brings a great since of accomplishment. Have any reader ever been to a Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do)Moo Duk Kwan Ko Dan Ja test? What was your experience? JC --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest