Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:45:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #471 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. training (J R Hilland) 2. Re: dance class (ABurrese@aol.com) 3. CDK Student (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 4. Dance (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 5. Testing (Dennis McHenry) 6. Yong Zeeb (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 7. Hapkido standard (Chris Holmes) 8. Re: CDK Student (Ray Terry) 9. Re: How about dancing hapkido (Klaas Barends) 10. traing/testing (Christy Cory) 11. Re: Dance (Jeremy Anderson) 12. RE: Sparring lower ranks... (CStovall@nucorar.com) 13. RE: Testing (Jeff Yeagley) 14. RE: traing/testing (Kip McCormick) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:37:18 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I sadly remember the days when our Sabum, an elderly Korean, would walk around with a jukdo (bamboo sword) and smack our legs if our stances were not just perfect. I am so glad that modern teaching methods have shown that this type of training is not conductive to learning. These days, if you ever get to Jackson, MS, for the big Korean Martial Arts 3 day get together held twice a year - look for the person having the most fun with the biggest grin and you will find me. I so enjoy throwing someone around on the mats. In our hapkido dojang, here in North Dakota, we have just as much fun! Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:34:06 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: dance class Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael Tomlinson posted: >>I know this sounds crazy and before some you perverts on >>here who >>know me start getting a visual of me in a ballet outfit >>just let me say that >>I allways wore sweat pants and t shirt.... Sure Mike, I want to see the pictures of you in your pink tutu. But not after I have just eaten. :-) On a serious note, dancing and especially ballet can be very demanding and great exercise that improves coordination, flexibility, timing, etc. It can help many other sports. Arnold practiced ballet to help his posing when he was competing in bodybuilding back in the 70s too. And everyone has heard about Bruce Lee being an exceptional dancer as well as martial artist. Yours in Training Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:41:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] CDK Student Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray What evidence can you provide that Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim was ever a student of Master Lee Won Kuk. I agree they may have trained together, however I don't believe it was a student instructor relationship. JC --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:48:07 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeremy; I did not mean any disrespect toward dance or dancers. I agree some dance classes are probably a physically difficult as some martial arts classes. My point is when you loss a dance competition you are disappointed, when you loss a fight with a man with a knife you die. The mental preparation is different. IMHO this separates sports of all kind from true martial arts classes. JC --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:33:33 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was discussing tesing with a couple of students last night. Tests are no more that was is ever asked for or done in class (some times I do push a little to see what they can do). The test is more internal for them - to perform under the pressure of "testing", being able to show your best of any requested action, knowing a critical eye is watching at the head table and friends and family are watching as well. It just becomes more of a chance to perform under their own intense anxious stress they put themselves under, and being albe to come through and feel the sense of accomplishment in front of their instructor, peers, friends and family. If I feel they can perform in class, I invite them to test. The test puts stress on them to perform under fire. Everyone handles stress differently, but part of it is just overcoming their fears and being able to perform anyway. No need to make it extra difficult just to check their progress, that's what regular classes are for :-) later, Mac ________________________________________________________________ Juno Platinum $9.95. Juno SpeedBand $14.95. Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com! Look for special offers at Best Buy stores. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:59:17 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Yong Zeeb Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir I am sure that it was me you saw at the Yong Zeeb in 1996. That was one of the last years I attended that tournament. I used a Female Red Belt as my partner, and if you remember she got no special treatment. As for double standards, I agree there are exceptions to every rule. I thought is that is OK for people to train and I can see promoting some on the merits of determination and spirit. I just think to many get a free ride. and it's the instructors fault. The instructors should have a standard and hold all the students to that standard. "Discipline goes beyond your personal feelings" H C Hwang Kwan Jang Nim JC --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:12:32 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido standard Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims, I can't speak for the material in Dr. Kimm's hapkido books but I feel comfortable speaking about the striking techniques with regards to Han Mu Do. We teach and use all of the striking techs. that you listed. Some are taught in the higher keub ranks but we teach everything you listed. The 4 knuckle strike may not be introduced until after 1st dan..... I can't remember a set in which it is introduced earlier but I only got a few hours sleep and may be forgetting something. Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] CDK Student To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:18:35 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > What evidence can you provide that Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim was ever a student > of Master Lee Won Kuk. I agree they may have trained together, however I > don't believe it was a student instructor relationship. That is why I said 'apparently'. Lee Won-kuk had indicated prior to his death that Hwang Kee had studied under him. But -perhaps- more importantly let us consider who had what training back then. Of the original Karate-ish kwans it would appear that Lee Won Kuk and In Yoon Byung were the only two that were at, or near, the master level of knowledge. For those that wanted to form Karate schools in Korea circa 1945/46 it would seem that they would seek training from those with the most background. But I still say 'apparently'. I doubt at this point we'll find much solid documentation that -proves- that Hwang Kee was a student of Lee's for any significant period of time. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Klaas Barends Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 05:45:25 +0900 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: How about dancing hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Seriously, though, I strongly suggest cross-training in dance under a > good > instructor. They have an amazing amount of knowledge on body > mechanics, > balance, posture, power generation, blending with a partner, etc. Of > course, chances are cha-cha lessons aren't going to save your > life...But > they may save your social life! Many women love a man who can dance... > :) http://www.hapkido.nl/uk/index.php?mode=info&Page=646 -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ http://www.sangmookwan.com/ --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Christy Cory" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 20:50:37 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] traing/testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been relatively quite on this digest and am sure that some of what is stated below will be met with some degree of irritation.  But, I guess, that's the beauty of being an American... One of the things I do not agree with is the thought/opinion (delivered sometimes as "fact") that tests are done  to generate revenue for the instructor/Do Jang.  I think that if tests  were generated merely for the instructors to gain additional funds, it  would be in the instructors best benefit to make them as quick and easy as  possible.  If you are going to get $100 (for example) from  your students to test them for their next belt.  And you really can  care less about how well they are doing, etc...why make it a 10 hour test?   Or spread it out over a Friday night and Saturday morning (like the tests at our Do Jang)? You  would get WAY more "bang for your buck" if you charge them $100 to come in  and do each pattern, 1-step and hapkido technique required for their belt and then hand them their belt and send them on their merry way in under an hour! I  believe others  have, however, previously made the point that instead of having these  "old school" tests...each "regular" class should be difficult and  demanding.  This absolutely has merritt (what is the point of training half-effort half the time, why train at all?).  The assumption being that some of these schools allow students  to "skate" through weekly classes and then get thrashed with calisthetics  and sparring on testing day.  If schools operated as just that, a  school and not a daycare, they would not have this problem.  They, IMHO, are  being lazy and have bred that into their students, which causes them to whine  when required to perform.  It appears that some are more than willing to  perpetuate that problem.  Again, IMHO. One thing I have noticed in  reading the Do Jang Digest posts, is that there are several very different  ways of thought regarding Martial Arts (TKD especially).  Again, part of the beauty of being able to speak your own mind!  It is my belief that some of these individuals really don't care what anyone thinks about testing or instructors sparring lower ranks(recent topics  from this digest)...they don't appear to be asking for opinions on these subjects to better themselves or their schools.  They want to argue about it.   They want to fight about it.  They call names,  make generalizations, belittle each other.  They can likely anticipate the reaction to their comments before they are even posted.  Where is the honor in this?  It goes against the very foundation of Martial Arts.  Or maybe, it just goes against what I have been taught.  Which would make it my problem. I know that I got way off topic on  this one, and I get riled up myself with the petty banter on  topics that should have more purpose than to irritate each other.  I must say, I am disappointed with the lack of integrity, and yes, class that some of these individuals are displaying.  I do find it unfortunate, because I have gained great insight in reading what some of the members have posted on a very wide variety of topics, but it is sometimes a daunting task to wade through some of the other "stuff" that is going on. Respectfully  submitted, Christy "frustrated yet still hopeful" Cory --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:24:33 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Dance To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JC, Ja, I got your point, and I've actually used similar admonishments when teaching ("Martial arts is a full contact activity!!! If you're afraid of a little bruising go to dance class instead and hope you never get jumped in a dark alley!!!"). So I'm not really offended by your comment. Just mostly having fun... Jeremy Anderson. --- Gladewater SooBahkDo wrote: > Jeremy; > > I did not mean any disrespect toward dance or dancers. I agree some > dance > classes are probably a physically difficult as some martial arts > classes. My > point is when you loss a dance competition you are disappointed, when > you loss > a fight with a man with a knife you die. The mental preparation is > different. > IMHO this separates sports of all kind from true martial arts classes. > > JC > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:04:33 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Sparring lower ranks... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I don't currently have "students" per se (in the commercial sense), but my training group is constantly finding and recruiting new "talent". As such, I'm constantly exposed to a few training partners that are significantly below my level in terms of knowledge, skill, and physical conditioning. Even so, I can honestly say that I gain a tremendous amount of benefit from working with these folks...especially during sparring sessions. Here's some things I've found to be true. 1. The best way to learn something is to teach it. For me, sparring sessions with a newbie always turns into coaching sessions. I like to give them ideas about what they need to be doing upfront, and then give them feedback and coaching along the way. This does a couple of things. First, it puts them at ease because they realize that I'm on their side. I'm there to help them, not gratify my ego by stomping them inside of 30 seconds. This takes away their performance anxiety and just allows them to relax and "enjoy the game". Second, it's of tremendous benefit to me because teaching and reinforcing the basics to someone else also reinforces MY basics during the process. I can't tell you how many epiphanies I've had while teaching a new person the simplest things. It's like, "Aha, HERE'S the value in doing it this way" as if the clouds just parted for the first time. You truly understand best what you teach and/or model. 2. Sparring with a person below my ability provides an opportunity to relax and explore new material. This is especially true during grappling. Personally, I'm trying to cultivate a very relaxed style of grappling that relies on as little muscular force as possible, and more on timing, set-ups and technique. Working with the newer person allows me to do this to a very large degree, whereas when I work with someone at or above my own skill level I kind of have to "bring it" a little from the athletic side of the spectrum. Again, they get the benefit of working with someone who has something to offer, and who is not trying to squash them into the mat. At the same time, I can relax and try new techniques that I might not normally attempt against a more "game" partner. 3. The flip side of number 2 is that new people sometimes bring attributes to the table that may be missing from your more experienced partners. For some reason, we seem to attract "talent" in one of three flavors...big, strong, and aggressive. Sometimes it's a "Neapolitan" of all three flavors...what fun!!! This is good for a number of reasons. First, it's very realistic from a technical scenario standpoint. If people don't have skill then they're going to rely on speed, strength, and aggression to make up the difference. How do you know if you can deal with those attributes if you've never faced them? Also, as stated before, new folks just "do stuff" that is outside of what you're normally used to. Working stand-up sparring with a newer person is sometimes VERY difficult because of the fact that their lower level of coordination actually creates a "broken rhythm" type of effect. In a nutshell, I don't think sparring with folks of lesser ability is going to bring your ability down. Sparring with newbies is infinitely better than not sparring at all. The only way I know of to get better at something is to practice it...to me that qualifies as practice. The trick is modifying the "game" in order to reap the maximum benefits for both parties. If it's a point sparring session that goes to three points, and you go BAP...BAP...BAP...well, I don't know if either one of you got any benefit out of that. However, if you use it as an opportunity to try new things, and help the new person then I think there's a LOT of value in that. Craig "Thank God for the Newbies" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Jeff Yeagley" To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:52:42 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net M Whalen wrote: "From what I've been reading people are being tested once. Then it's pass or fail. What about those days when you're "off" a little or maybe dealing with an injury. So, then it's "you fail, see you next year"? (This, of course doesn't apply to those who are always "on" or never get injured) At out dojang we test quarterly from 2-4 years and usually by the same group of instructors. They see you with and without injuries and on good days and bad. I was just wondering if there were any other arts that tested this way?....." michael "I've always been a little off" whalen KSWnut In our TKD school we believe that a good test of the students ability lies in being able to perform in a stressful situation (i.e. the test). This helps them to develop the skills to remain calm in front of people. We also test quarterly, and by the same group of instructors. I realize it may be a very different situation in a school where the testing is only held annually. There may be some leeway for say a nervous 10 year old testing for orange belt, but as far as black belt testing, we feel that even on their worst day the student must exemplify the skills and fortitude of the black belt. FWIW, Jeff Yeagley Chief Instructor Academy of Fighting Arts Business Phone: 816-525-5555 Email: jeff.yeagley@wetrainharder.com Web: http://www.wetrainharder.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] traing/testing Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:32:29 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Christy- Although I'm bummed you're frustrated, I'm glad you're hopeful. I agree, banging on each other is counter-productive. I think, though, that the great thing about this digest is that we can have discussions about current trends in the martial arts, disagree, and make each other think about ways to teach, test, and make not only each other, but martial arts a better endevour for all. We may know the reactions to statements ( a good example is my banging on kukkiwon certification) but if it generates discussion in a positive manner (not name calling and style bashing) then I think that's a good thing. It's good to see what folks are thinking (although the name calling is BS). I may not agree with everything that's said on here, but what's said makes me look at what I'm doing -- some things I dismiss, some things I take to heart. In real life I'm a teacher of international relations here at the US Military Academy, West Point. My mission is to teach these kids, prior to going to Iraq, Afghanistan, and other great vacation spots in the world, to clearly think through a problem from multiple sides or look at stuff through multiple lenses, make a decision and go. In a way most of our postings on the digest do the same -- I may not agree with everything someone may write, but I definitely consider what they're thinking (minus the name calling and other type BS) and either add it to my kit bag or throw it out. Don't get too frustrated. I hit the delete key on the postings in which the boneheads are just promoting themselves or their own agendas. Great posting and keep throwin' down! Kip  One thing I have noticed in  reading the Do Jang >Digest posts, is that there are several very different  ways of thought >regarding Martial Arts (TKD especially).  Again, part of the beauty of >being able to speak your own mind!  It is my belief that some of these >individuals really don't care what anyone thinks about testing or >instructors sparring lower ranks(recent topics  from this digest)...they >don't appear to be asking for opinions on these subjects to better >themselves or their schools.  They want to argue about it.   They want to >fight about it.  They call names,  make generalizations, belittle each >other.  They can likely anticipate the reaction to their comments before >they are even posted.  Where is the honor in this?  It goes against the >very foundation of Martial Arts.  Or maybe, it just goes against what I >have been taught.  Which would make it my problem. I know that I got way >off topic on  this one, and I get riled up myself with the petty banter >on  >topics that should have more purpose than to irritate each other.  I must >say, I am disappointed >with the lack of integrity, and yes, class that some of these individuals >are displaying.  I do find it unfortunate, because I have gained great >insight in reading what some of the members have posted on a very wide >variety of topics, but it is sometimes a daunting task to wade through >some of the other "stuff" that is going on. Respectfully  submitted, >Christy "frustrated yet still hopeful" Cory >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest