Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 06:16:03 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #472 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: dance class (Kip McCormick) 2. Re: 2 cents on testing (Scott) 3. Respect (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 4. Curious (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 5. dan recourse (Tkdsid@aol.com) 6. Well Said (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 7. West Point (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 8. Re: The_Dojang digest GM West's wisdom re: testing and other stuff (TKDgalSamm@aol.com) 9. Re: dan recourse (Ray Terry) 10. That Sparring Question (Emactkd@aol.com) 11. RE: West Point (Brian Woodard) 12. RE: dan recourse (MrV) 13. training/testing (J R Hilland) 14. Clarification for Christy Cory (Say that fast 10 times) (CStovall@nucorar.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] dance class Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:40:35 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael- I had to laugh out loud at your post. When I went through the basic course in the mid '80s we had a female lieutenant assigned to the post come in and give a class in aerobics. We all were extremely upset that hardened warriors would have to be listening to a young lady yell "flossy flossy one, flossy flossy two, come on girls, get those legs up...YOU'RE ALL PIGS..." Ten minutes into the class I was weazing so badly people thought the Royal Canadian Army's Princess Patricia's Regiment's Bagpipe Corps was at the door playing "Amazing Grace." Never again did I bad mouth something that looked like only girly men do... Kip >From: "michael tomlinson" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] dance class >Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:45:58 +0000 > >In the early 70's a lot of us old type football players actually took >ballet!! I know this sounds crazy and before some you perverts on here who >know me start getting a visual of me in a ballet outfit just let me say >that I allways wore sweat pants and t shirt.... Ballet was thought back >then to be one of the best activities for your agility.... I will have to >say that it was the hardest physical activity I EVER participated in... >including football, wrestling, martial arts, track, and cross country.... I >have a whole new respect for those ballet types after 6 months of that... > > Michael Tomlinson > >_________________________________________________________________ >Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and >more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:54:46 -0500 From: Scott To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 2 cents on testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael Whalen wrote: >At out dojang we test quarterly from 2-4 years and usually by the same >group of instructors. They see you with and without injuries and on good >days and bad. >I was just wondering if there were any other arts that tested this way?..... > We did something like that. Under my old instructor we held black belt tests every 6 months. All black belts were required to test but the cost for "pretests", test not for new dan, was only $20. The cost for tests for new dan rank were generally part of the new contract negations. IMVHO, Testing has nothing to do with "Testing" skills. Yes it was a money maker for the Instructor, But for us students it was a time to get together and celebrate. We had our own "traditions". Lunch afterward at a Buffet. Hanging out at someones place watching kungfu movies. Always talking about the testing and the training before. As far as testing goes to me it is just a by product of the color belt system. To me belts don't really have anything to do with MA training. If you are training one on one with someone, then you don't have any need to give them a belt or uniforms or whatever. You give technique, you both give sweat and dedication. Belts are just a way to organize and motivate larger groups of students. If you told your students that they were just going to show up and train every day for the rest of your life, you would overwhelm most of them, and many more would question why? Belts give students a goal. Gives them a short set of skill that they need to learn to attain that goal. When they work hard to attain that goal how should they be rewarded. No fan fare, no excitement, just "Hey you, your a green belt now!" Very anticlimactic. Testing just gives them a fixed point that they can say "I have achieved my goal!" Now I can set for myself a new goal. The harder the testing the more spectacular the climax. When we had testing I was always disappointed when I felt they were to easy. This was my chance to shine, show off all the things that I had learned. Of course my instructors knew I could do it. so did everyone else I trained with. I wasn't there to be "tested" I was there to show off what I had learned. To celebrate what I had achieved. The harder the test, the more that was thrown at me, the better I liked it. I especially liked it when they would give me something that was not in the "requirements". They would call them "surprises". Some would cry "you never said we would have to do that!" I would say "Hey Cool! what else you got?" Sometimes I didn't accomplish those surprises. That just gave me more incentive to try and work harder. I remember the time I was injured a the day before testing. My instructor told me not to show up, he knew I could preform all the requirements and he would pass me anyways. I was crushed. I begged him to let me test. Sure enough I the next day I was there. Prouder then ever just to be there. I liken it to climbing a mountain. you can't just walk over to Everest and start up. You have to practice and train. When you are ready, you start the climb. By that time you have all the skills to reach the top. So why go? Because the climb is the challenge. reaching the top is the goal. But you gain no abilities by standing on the summit and looking around at the view. Everything that makes you stronger and better is in training. The climb is the expression of the training. And the view is your moment of recognition for making the climb. Now it's time to train some more so that you can climb a bigger mountain. Of course training is the thing. if it was just about self defense we wouldn't be using outdated weapons that are illegal to carry, or following traditions pasted from teachers to students and every MA would have hand guns in it. But they don't. We train to train. Just getting a belt should not be your reason for training in the martial arts. For most beginners and some advanced students it is. "I want a black belt", "I want a n'th dan". Hopefully along the way they will learn that the belt doesn't make the man/women the training does. But until then testings are the celebration of their achievement, a chance for them to express their training in a group of like minded individuals. It's them reaching the top of one mountain and looking for one another to climb. IMVHO Scott --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:48:15 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Respect Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JR Hilland I respect you for you opinions, and I am glad you have fun training. For me I prefer to train for realistic attacks from a person that wants to hurt me, in a place where there is no judge and no referee. To me that is gratifying. JC --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:52:57 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Curious Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Mac Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't you a member of the US Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan (Soo Bahk Do). If so did you participate in a Ko Dan Ja Shim Sa? JC --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:54:58 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] dan recourse Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you've been had by an instructor, paid your fewe and not gotten your kukkiwon as promised...how can you apply directly to the kukkiwon for the certificate??? Sincerely, Sid Rubinfeld --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:05:25 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Well Said Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeff Well said. what organization of TSD are you affiliated with? JC --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:18:39 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] West Point Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kip How long have you been at West Point. The US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan had a national event there in 1988 (I think that was the year). Do you know if there is a Moo Duk Kwan School close to there. We have several schools in NY but I am not sure how close they are, or if someone teaches at the Academy. Or could it have been someone teaching at the Academy at that time and is no longer there. During the demonstrations at this event two E-Dans from West Point demonstrated defense using a rifle and bayonet. I have it on video. It was very impressive. JC --__--__-- Message: 8 From: TKDgalSamm@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:39:19 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest GM West's wisdom re: testing and other stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 11/3/2004 12:33:32 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Excellent post! As usual GM West's wisdom comes through. This last statement is so true. Thanks for posting it. I'm late with this post ... but I agree. I usually agree with GM West. Anyone who has met him knows he is an instructor who cares about what he teaches. It's commonly known as TRADITION. :-) Loretta --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] dan recourse To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:26:24 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If you've been had by an instructor, paid your fewe and not gotten your > kukkiwon as promised...how can you apply directly to the kukkiwon for the > certificate??? No, not to my knowledge. As a US resident, as I understand it, you get a Kukkiwon cert one of two ways. You train and test under a master that goes through the USTU which then goes to the Kukkiwon, or you train and test under a master that goes directly to the Kukkiwon. To go directly thru the Kukkiwon a master first sets up an account with the Kukkiwon (providing all qualifying info and details at setup time) and then submits dan cert apps and $ directly to the Kukkiwon under that account #. To go thru the USTU a master must have his/her dojang registered each year as a USTU dojang and the master himself/herself must be registered w/the USTU. They then submit dan cert apps and $ to the USTU. The USTU submits quarterly reports to the Kukkiwon showing the newly issued dan certs. You get your dan certs from the USTU, hey are equivalent to a cert issued directly from the Kukkiwon. Any corrections to the above??? Please let me know. As for being had by an instructor, your best recourse may be to go to small claims court to get your $ returned. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:53:04 -0500 From: Emactkd@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] That Sparring Question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, it looks like we all agree to spar with our students. SO how do you do that? That and keep control of the class, oversee to the safety of the other students, and provide more than a handful of lessons each class? In sparring with beginner adults, which is what I assume we are talking about, I have found that they demand a higher level of attention than more experienced students, if only because their movements are spontaneous and unorthodox. A real crappy round kick delivered full out by an enthusiastic white belt can ruin your day. But in sparring a student and keeping your attention focused narrowly you risk your school. If another is injured while your attention is elsewhere you could be found negligent. I would recommend sparring with students in a demonstration type setting, or one-on-one after class. Them waivers they signed only count if you aren't negligent. After all, this is America. Rick Foley --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Brian Woodard" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] West Point Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:06:10 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I do not have the exact dates or how long. GM Duk Song Son taught "Korean Karate" at West Point and had several instructional videos for the military only. At one of our black belt dinners, some of this footage was shown. I have not seen any of this since I was a 2nd gup at the time. I'm pretty sure that is not the video mentioned below. GM Duk Song Son still teaches classes in NY at the ripe of age of 81+ but as far as I know he no longer teaches at West Point. He led the Sunday workout following our tournament/black belt test in March of this year. That was my 1st dan test. I still think it is one of the greatest honors to be tested by one of the pioneers of "TKD" ,"TSD", "CDK TKD" or plain old "Korean Karate" whichever name you want to give it or call it. Brian -----Original Message----- From: Gladewater SooBahkDo [mailto:GladewaterSooBahkDo@msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:19 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] West Point Kip How long have you been at West Point. The US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan had a national event there in 1988 (I think that was the year). Do you know if there is a Moo Duk Kwan School close to there. We have several schools in NY but I am not sure how close they are, or if someone teaches at the Academy. Or could it have been someone teaching at the Academy at that time and is no longer there. During the demonstrations at this event two E-Dans from West Point demonstrated defense using a rifle and bayonet. I have it on video. It was very impressive. JC _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "MrV" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] dan recourse Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:01:06 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It may also just take some time - I've been waiting a year myself -----Original Message----- From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 6:26 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] dan recourse > If you've been had by an instructor, paid your fewe and not gotten your > kukkiwon as promised...how can you apply directly to the kukkiwon for the > certificate??? No, not to my knowledge. As a US resident, as I understand it, you get a Kukkiwon cert one of two ways. You train and test under a master that goes through the USTU which then goes to the Kukkiwon, or you train and test under a master that goes directly to the Kukkiwon. To go directly thru the Kukkiwon a master first sets up an account with the Kukkiwon (providing all qualifying info and details at setup time) and then submits dan cert apps and $ directly to the Kukkiwon under that account #. To go thru the USTU a master must have his/her dojang registered each year as a USTU dojang and the master himself/herself must be registered w/the USTU. They then submit dan cert apps and $ to the USTU. The USTU submits quarterly reports to the Kukkiwon showing the newly issued dan certs. You get your dan certs from the USTU, hey are equivalent to a cert issued directly from the Kukkiwon. Any corrections to the above??? Please let me know. As for being had by an instructor, your best recourse may be to go to small claims court to get your $ returned. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "J R Hilland" To: "Net" Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 01:13:11 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] training/testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Christy "frustrated yet still hopeful": There about around 1800 people who subscribe to this list. Very few actually contribute. There are even more who read it, as some read the emails from the DD website. Our own Master Ray Terry has done an 'outstanding' job over the years of putting this digest together and running it. I am proud to call him a good friend. But he does not control what people say, he just provides guidelines and hints when it is time to move on. He is a very relaxed Californian. This is why a lot of us came here in the first place. Every year or so, we get someone new on the list that stirs up things. That gives room for discussion, an exchange of ideas and experiences, and yes, opinions. Nothing wrong with that as long as it does not resort to name calling. I usually just post when a pet peeve strikes a nerve. Then I enjoy jumping in. As is the case with my recent discussion with Mr. Cox. Sometimes I enjoy taking the devils advocate role as it is my personal opinion (and one of my favorite sayings), that anything taken to an extreme is dangerous by definition (I don't remember who said that). But a lot of us here train together twice a year in Mississippi and have known each other for a while. Our own Lieutenant Colonel (Kip) said it best with his comment: "I think, though, that the great thing about this digest is that we can have discussions about current trends in the martial arts, disagree, and make each other think about ways to teach, test, and make not only each other, but martial arts a better endeavor for all. We may know the reactions to statements (a good example is my banging on kukkiwon certification) but if it generates discussion in a positive manner (not name calling and style bashing) then I think that's a good thing." I have seen the discussion of the Korean martial arts change allot in the past 3 decades. Now the internet has brought out 'truths' in what is going on in our world as we hardly ever had discussions outside of the dojang until the internet arrived, now they happen every day! I think that is great! I even met my current teacher, Master West, on a forum just like this. So please cheer up, life is just to short to be frustrated, but I am glad you are hopeful! :). Just my opinion... Jere R. Hilland www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:34:34 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Clarification for Christy Cory (Say that fast 10 times) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ms. Cory wrote, <<>> Just wanted to repeat what I wrote on Nov 2. Please see below... <<>> Not to stir things up, but I just wanted to make it clear that I was giving my opinion...not stating facts. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest