Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:57:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #473 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on behemoth2.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,MONEY_MAKING, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. CDK Student (CStovall@nucorar.com) 2. RE: West Point (Kevin F. Donohue) 3. Testing (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Dan Recourse (Robert Frankovich) 5. Re: 2 cents on testing (j.mchie@insightbb.com) 6. Respect (j.mchie@insightbb.com) 7. RE: West Point (Kip McCormick) 8. Respect (J R Hilland) 9. RE: dan recourse (Master Mark Seidel) 10. Re: Testing (Scott) 11. cocked and locked (michael tomlinson) 12. USTA/ITA (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 13. Bert Edens, et al: (George Peters) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:28:53 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] CDK Student Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Just for "gits and shiggles"...let's assume for a moment that Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim did NOT have a student/instructor relationship with Lee, Won Kuk. You can state it as fact as far as I'm concerned. Then...who DID he train under? Who WAS his teacher? Did he have a teacher? If not, then did he gain his skill and knowledge by working with his contemporaries/peers? If so, then WHO were these people? If that's not the case, then how did he learn? Was he self-taught? If so, what was the source material? Time frame? Location? Consider this...I don't care if he learned everything he knew from watching Panther videos. I'm just interested to know if that's the case. That wouldn't diminish him in my view as long as he was a quality teacher that developed great students. And you know what...the evidence would seem to support the fact that he was great and developed great students. Ray has offered some suggestions to answer my questions. You have offered your opinion that Ray is not intimately connected with the truth. Got it!!! Now, I'd like to hear your version of things. Would you kindly consider my simple questions...pretty please...with a cherry on top? Honest Injun... I just REALLY don't know a lot about some of the KMA history. Thanks!!! Craig "Just Curious" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:50:44 -0500 From: "Kevin F. Donohue" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] West Point To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hong's Karate School is located New Windsor (845-561-9898). The Schools are run under the direction of Grand Master Hong,In Kee; the son in-law of Hwang Kee. Master Hong also runs a chain of Japanese/Korean restaurant called "Ha Na"...one is located in Middletown, NY and the other is located in Monticello, NY in Sullivan County. I hope this helps. http://www.hongskarate.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Gladewater SooBahkDo [mailto:GladewaterSooBahkDo@msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:19 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] West Point Kip How long have you been at West Point. The US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan had a national event there in 1988 (I think that was the year). Do you know if there is a Moo Duk Kwan School close to there. We have several schools in NY but I am not sure how close they are, or if someone teaches at the Academy. Or could it have been someone teaching at the Academy at that time and is no longer there. During the demonstrations at this event two E-Dans from West Point demonstrated defense using a rifle and bayonet. I have it on video. It was very impressive. JC _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:08:58 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Scott writes: > IMVHO, Testing has nothing to do with "Testing" skills. Yes it was a > money maker for the Instructor, But for us students it was a time to > get > together and celebrate. We had our own "traditions". Lunch afterward at > a Buffet. Hanging out at someones place watching kungfu movies. Always > talking about the testing and the training before. Hello Scott et all: I have seen several people talk about testing, and there are various opinions floating around; however, none of them have addressed the main reason I test my people every three months. It has NOTHIN to do with making money, and it makes me a bit sick that folks automatically assume that. I test my people for several reason. The first one being is that I need to know their progress before something bad creeps in there. Since I do not teach all of the classes (getting too old to turn on the kids theses days), I feel it is my duty to check on their welfare (as much as I want to know how my Instructors are doing with their teaching skills). Testing, and checking the test papers, gives me an opportunity to evaluate both. For me, testing is a lot of work, and it is certainly not a money maker when I look at the time I personally spend on it. Next, I also like to add lots of stress in a test, and that is because I want my people to be able to do their stuff under stress. Yes, I am of the old school, and I make life hell for my people during a test, but it has served me well so far (even though I normally have to fend off a bunch of moms who think I treated their kid too rough by urging them to do better). So, it gives me a good opportunity to weed out some parents who IMHO stand in the way of their kids growing up. I run a non profit school, so I thankfully do not have to put up with their nonsense. I am talking about parents who drop their kid off and never look to see how s/he is doing. Same parents who, at their kids first complaint, come in ready to give me hell for taking the time to raise their kid. People are quite ready to let someone else teach their kids about right and wrong etc. but only as long as little Johnny does not come home crying because now they can't deal with that. Heck, I have even had a few parents forget their kid was in my school, and I had to call the cops to come and get their kid at 11:30 at night because I could not locate mom or dad. So, IMHO, testing has a lot more to it than just making a few bucks. For me it is a picture of how well my school does in a lot of different ways. Next week I am about to test a group of people who are long distance students of mine. Part of this test is running a challenge course, snow or whatever. We finish up by taking a plunge in Lake Huron. Last year, being the first one in (I don't ask them to do things I am not willing to do myself first), I had to break ice for those who followed. This year no ice, so those who are about to take the plunge have an easy go of it. Why do we do this??? Same reason the various armed forces make such harsh demands from their soldiers, and yes.... I still rule with the Jook Do too... lol. Haven't gotten sued yet, but that is probably because everyone knows I have no assets (despite all of that money I am apparently supposed to make on testing). I teach for the love of the arts, and that has left me very little for people to sue me for after some fifty five years lol. Heck, my students will need to do a fund raiser to burry me to prevent the dojang from reeking, 'cause I fully intend to bite the final dust on the mat:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:59:50 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Frankovich To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan Recourse Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you're an AAU TKD member, Mike Friello will help you get your Kukkiwon certification, also. > Message: 9 > From: Ray Terry > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] dan recourse > > > If you've been had by an instructor, paid your > > fee and not gotten your > > kukkiwon as promised...how can you apply directly > > to the kukkiwon for the > > certificate??? > > No, not to my knowledge. > > As a US resident, as I understand it, you get a > Kukkiwon cert one of two ways. > You train and test under a master that goes through > the USTU which then > goes to the Kukkiwon, or you train and test under a > master that goes directly > to the Kukkiwon. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: j.mchie@insightbb.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 2 cents on testing Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:19:52 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Scott wrote: "I liken it to climbing a mountain. you can't just walk over to Everest and start up. You have to practice and train. When you are ready, you start the climb. By that time you have all the skills to reach the top. So why go? Because the climb is the challenge. reaching the top is the goal. But you gain no abilities by standing on the summit and looking around at the view. Everything that makes you stronger and better is in training. The climb is the expression of the training. And the view is your moment of recognition for making the climb. Now it's time to train some more so that you can climb a bigger mountain." While I generally like you analogy, my Everest is the ability to defend myself, and others--not attaining my black belt, or the next rank. I practice and train so that when the challenge comes I will be ready--and that challenge is not a mountain waiting for me, it is a mugger, a thug, a punk, or my drunk uncle Dozer. If I need a test to simulate something I am not doing when I train, then I'm not training properly. I actually think this is part of the point you were trying to make, but it was mixed in with some very valid points about the use of testing as a relationship and community-building tool at the dojang, and to me they are very different points. Either way, I see no need for testing to be any more gruelling than training, and I certainly don't think I need to take a week off work to test for anything, as some tests have been described herein. Jim McHie Jr. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: j.mchie@insightbb.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Respect Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:23:52 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JC wrote: "JR Hilland I respect you for you opinions, and I am glad you have fun training. For me I prefer to train for realistic attacks from a person that wants to hurt me, in a place where there is no judge and no referee. To me that is gratifying. JC" I see no incompatability with enjoying training, or with instructors incorporating certain "fun" elements to training, and training for realistic attacks. If some schools go overboard, that's not surprising, but it's different than the notion that there can be no levity in the dojang, or enjoyment in training. Is there not a happy middle ground? Jim McHie Jr. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] West Point Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:29:32 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JC- I arrived at West Point this past summer. We have a martial arts club on post, but no official SooBahkDo school. Kevin Donahue posted already w/ the SBD schools in the AO. Hope all is well. Kip >From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] West Point >Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:18:39 -0600 > >Kip > >How long have you been at West Point. The US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan had a >national event there in 1988 (I think that was the year). Do you know if >there is a Moo Duk Kwan School close to there. We have several schools in >NY >but I am not sure how close they are, or if someone teaches at the Academy. >Or >could it have been someone teaching at the Academy at that time and is no >longer there. > >During the demonstrations at this event two E-Dans from West Point >demonstrated defense using a rifle and bayonet. I have it on video. It was >very impressive. > >JC >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:45:26 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Respect Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> That is what we do as that is what hapkido is! Sorry you don't enjoy it as much as I do! The last time I had anything to do with a judge and a referee was about 4 years ago when I did a hapkido demonstration as the 1/2 time show at a taekwondo tournament. The time before that was about 5 years ago when I got a speeding ticket! :) Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] dan recourse Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:14:49 -0500 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The USTU just does the paper work I am told the cert still comes from Korea. Master Mark Seidel Martial Arts /PE Program The Midtown Academy http://www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: Ray Terry [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:26 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] dan recourse > If you've been had by an instructor, paid your fewe and not gotten your > kukkiwon as promised...how can you apply directly to the kukkiwon for the > certificate??? No, not to my knowledge. As a US resident, as I understand it, you get a Kukkiwon cert one of two ways. You train and test under a master that goes through the USTU which then goes to the Kukkiwon, or you train and test under a master that goes directly to the Kukkiwon. To go directly thru the Kukkiwon a master first sets up an account with the Kukkiwon (providing all qualifying info and details at setup time) and then submits dan cert apps and $ directly to the Kukkiwon under that account #. To go thru the USTU a master must have his/her dojang registered each year as a USTU dojang and the master himself/herself must be registered w/the USTU. They then submit dan cert apps and $ to the USTU. The USTU submits quarterly reports to the Kukkiwon showing the newly issued dan certs. You get your dan certs from the USTU, hey are equivalent to a cert issued directly from the Kukkiwon. Any corrections to the above??? Please let me know. As for being had by an instructor, your best recourse may be to go to small claims court to get your $ returned. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:19:51 -0500 From: Scott To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Testing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Scott writes: >>IMVHO, Testing has nothing to do with "Testing" skills. Yes it was a >>money maker for the Instructor, But for us students it was a time to >>get >>together and celebrate. We had our own "traditions". Lunch afterward at >>a Buffet. Hanging out at someones place watching kungfu movies. Always >>talking about the testing and the training before. >> >> >Rudy Timmerman wrote: > > >It has NOTHIN to do with making money, and it makes me a bit sick that folks automatically >assume that. > Hello Master Timmerman, I am really looking forward to the chance to see you at a seminar again. I learned alot at the one I was able to attend last year. I just wanted to clairfy my position in my previous post. I think that many people just see the money being collected and assume that is the purpose for the test. But just because money is collected doesn't mean that is purpose behind the testing nor does it mean that a profit is being made.While testing was a money maker for my previous Master. He held gup testings every month at different satalite schools. Having more the 400 students in five schools even at $20 a person that added up. But that was not the reason for the testing. His purpose was much the same as yours. It gave him more control over students that he didn't always see training first hand. It gave him chance to see problems in how his black belts were teaching and gave everyone the chance to be told "from the source" how something should be. Was it a money maker? Yes. Was that it's purpose NO. For us it was kind of a mini seminar/demo. We got to show what we knew. apply our skills to challenges, and see how we did. It gave us a chance to measure our training and make sure we were headed in the right direction. And as you said, as instructors it was lots of work. We were the first to arrive and the last to leave. If you weren't seated at the head table you were on the floor leading the testers, or being the uki. A long tough day espcially went little kids are envolved. But one that was very special to us. So please everyone know that I do not think testing is for the purpose of making money. I think it is an ecsential road marker in a students training. The reaching of a sort term goal. And the time to recommit to the next step on your journey. Thanks Scott --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 19:39:39 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] cocked and locked Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master West,, my guys are all awaiting the training session over in Tampa at Rusty's Tang Soo Do Dojang in January.. looking forward to having you teach, joke, and set the positive example that you always do.... Hapki!! Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:14:06 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] USTA/ITA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Can anyone supply me with an email address and/or telephone number of a Master Don Swift of the USTA/ITA? He is supposedly a 7th Dan and a doctor...? Thanks James Morgan GTKDA --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:15:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bert Edens, et al: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sirs, In reading your posts on sparring juniors, especially white belts, something came to mind that I had not thought of for years. It was in reference to swordsmanship, but would apply to any contests of martial skills. In essence, I believe the quote said that the swordsman most feared by the master was the one one who had no training, therefor no "style", no predictability, allowing no comfort zone in his superior knowledge as the beginner out of sheer terror and force of will would do ANYTHING to win, whereas most feel bound by some sort of parameters laid down by training. Does anyone else remember reading or discussing this?(probably in an english comp class) Respectfully, George _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest