Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:37:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #492 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on behemoth2.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREE_TRIAL, NO_REAL_NAME,YOUR_INCOME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: doing it for the money (Ray Terry) 2. Hal's Kotegaeshi (Burdick, Dakin R) 3. Re: Chargine and Not Charging (Bruce Sims) 4. Master Whalen (michael tomlinson) 5. Re: doing it for the money (Stickfighter87@aol.com) 6. Sip Sam Seh (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 7. Re: Doing it for the money (Bobby Whittemore) 8. Ship Sam Seh (FRANK CLAY) 9. Korean swords (KO-Online) 10. RE: doing it for the money (Lasich, Mark D.) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] doing it for the money To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 07:19:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... Let me ask you this...Would > you go to a cheap Doctor? Do you take your car to a cheap mechanic? > Would you go to a cheap financial advisor or cheap Lawyer? I would not! > So why is it that it is not ok to charge a premium price for what we are > teaching. If you really want to elevate the quality of martial arts we > have to stop giving it away. I see where you're going with this... but sure. I would go to a cheap lawyer or doctor or advisor, why not? I believe that most people would, and frequently do. We look for the best quality at the best price. All too often we really believe that you get what you pay for. That isn't necessarily the case, hince the popularity of the reviews in Consumers Report. e.g. I teach firearms safety classes for next to nothing. Why? Some things are just too important not to share with people. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:54:10 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Hal's Kotegaeshi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere asked re: Hal's kotegaeshi: >Is this the one were he does a twist kick while performing this technique? Yep - enter with twist kick then use leg to reinforce the throw. Take care, Dakin --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:38:11 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Chargine and Not Charging Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear James et al: ".....You are correct. This might open a big can of things. I agree with you. It is very possible to support yourself, school, and whatnot on your income from teaching. I am not one of those people, but do believe it is possible....." I chime in here because I feel as though I advocate for the other side of the coin. Please bear with me. First off, I don't have an issue with people making money off of the KMA. Its not exactly MY cup of tea but I can understand other people needing to do it--- or even wanting to do it. Thats fine. I just want to be careful that we don't swing too far one way or the other. My objection to commerce in the KMA has always come back to those folks for whom EVERYTHING translates into some sort of gain or profit. I must fairly report that there are those who will not pitch-in unless they get some sort of emotional or financial pay-off. And then there are those who go even farther and exploit what has been made commercial by bending facts or misrepresenting things and I don't think I have to elaborate about that on this net, do I? I had a very nice experience in NC a few weeks back. I flew out on my own dime, did a seminar on Hapkido kebonsu and let the folks tape me doing the Sword forms we have in Hwa Rang Kum Bup. Gotta gift certificate in return. I'll probably do it again next year, who knows. I'd rather do that than have somebody from, say, Florida, come up and represent his sword material as jen-u-whine KHF sword stuff, I can tell you THAT! Again, I'm not trying to stakeout some "moral high-ground". If people need compensation and want to make a living off of KMA thats their decision. What I am here to say is that we don't want to go over the other way and do nothing EXCEPT that it brings in bucks. Hope this makes sense. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:41:38 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Whalen Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Having been aqqainted with Master Whalen and testing under him from yellow belt to 3rd dan let me say that I know he does Hapkido for the love of the art first and foremost... it is kind of funny because Master Whalen will share his Hapkido with you, treat you like a friend and not a customer, and go out of his way to perpetuate the art of Hapkido... when all this changes is when you actually test under him!!! When it comes test time you better know your stuff and you better be ready to sweat, hit the mat for hours, and possibly vomit once or twice.... guys I'm not exaggerating either...you have to understand where he comes from and who he is.. having a background in the spec ops venue he is VERY cognizant of paying your dues and I don't mean by debit card either....their is NO WAY you will ever get something from Master Whalen for free when it comes to the mat time involved. I personally don't have any problem with people charging for their services and although I have never met Mr. Allison I have NEVER heard any thing bad about him... and this comes from my Hapkido brothers that have met and worked out with him... The ONLY problem I have with charging big money is that some people do that and then feel indebted to maybe push someone along when it comes to test time... you know the old deal with some orgs and people where IF you pay the 299.00 for the video set then the black belt comes along real soon for only 299.00 more...I've seen it and so have most of you.... Guys, charge what is fair but when it comes to teaching and testing don't cut them any "deal" if you know what I mean.... then it's all good in the hood... Michael Tomlinson p.s. if Master Whalen put a price on what he has given me in Hapkido I would probably have to give him the deed to my house!! --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:39:47 -0500 From: Stickfighter87@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] doing it for the money Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In agreeance to your post. I tend to agree that many people seek out what they can afford comfortably, whether it be law services, medical services, or even mechanical serivces. So why should martial arts be different? Seeking knowledge is more important to find a dedicated student or students with little to no price rather then to charge an abundance of money for only those who are fortunate to be able to afford it. I think many people in this world tend to think that Martial Arts are only for those with "good paying jobs" or good work ethics etc... Thats all good if thats who you target as a student base but let's face it. Those people never will have to defend themselves more then likely like those of less fortune like College students ( who are primarily poor), or the middle class who works for minimum wage because thats all the job market is putting out these days. I've been very fortunate to have found instructors who has helped share to me and I return the same to my students. THANKS CORY --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 12:59:48 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sip Sam Seh Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir George; Thank you for the help. I talked with Master Bongsinore in New York and helped me quite a bit. I also taled with my personal instructor. There is a good article written by Master D. Sagarra. on his web page warrior-scholar. Thanks again. JC --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 11:11:19 -0800 (PST) From: Bobby Whittemore To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Doing it for the money Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Allison, You wrote: "If you really want to elevate the quality of martial arts we have to stop giving it away." Why? I don't see the logic in your assertion, and experience has shown me just the opposite is true. I have always trained with small clubs. Sometimes a good club is hard to find (they are not in the yellow pages), and there have been years where I trained solo because I could not find the right club. Currently I train with a group of around 10 people, and my teacher has been training for over 30 years and is an excellent martial artist. Our classes are officially an hour and fifteen minutes long, but I'm usually there for around three hours, or as long as a student wants my help anyway. None of us do martial arts for money, we do it for love. This gives us the advantage of spending as much time on our arts and on our club members as we have to give within the constraints of our spare time. Contrast this to my daughter's TKD class. Her mother got her into the typical commercial school. You know, where they give you a free uniform and a free trial lesson and get you all excited about their program before they take you into the back room and tell you how much it costs and give you a contract. If money is how we gauge the quality of martial arts instruction, my daughter must be getting the best in town. Unfortunately, that's not the case at all. Now, the teacher is a good martial artist, and he is good with kids too. So what's the problem? Well, it's a commercial school in a new building with nice new equipment and there are bills to pay. Big bills by the look of it. So for that school, it's all about the money. Classes are 45 minutes long, with virtually no breaks between classes. So, it's all rush rush. No time to properly warm up, no time for individual instruction, just run through the basic techniques, do a few class drills, and do some forms with everybody doing the form they are working on at the same time. It really looks like chaos when they are all doing different forms. Then, it's time to open the gates and release this crowd and herd in the next one. They seem to have an effective marketing program, because the classes are full, too full. The way I see it, it's a case of quality vs. quantity. The commercial school in the above example is all about quantity. They probably have to be in order to keep their doors open. I bet I spend more individual time with an underbelt in one evening than my daughter gets at her school in a year. She has been training at that school for almost two years, and she is ready to quit. Why? She doesn't get nurtured there. She senses that she is just a statistic. She doesn't feel like a member of a close-knit group. She doesn't get the individual attention that a MA student needs. The irony of this is that I am dreaming of opening a school in the next couple of years. I believe that we have a good program and that there is a real need in our community. I would like to make our program more widely available than is possible in our current small group setting. Can it be done without falling into the quantity trap and losing all sense of quality? I trust that many on this list do run quality commercial schools. We need to be aware that we have limited resources, and time spent running the martial arts business is time not devoted to providing quality martial arts instruction. We need to be aware that the relationship between owner and customer is vastly different than the relationship between teacher and pupil. At this particular point in time, my ignorance and insight points me in the direction of opening a school in order to serve more people, but not using such a school as a way to make a living. Hopefully, this should keep costs low enough to be affordable to students, and help to preserve the proper relationship between teachers and students. Such a move would not be met with encouragement by the other schools in the area. They would undoubtedly fear a new competitor with lower prices. But shouldn't they rest secure in their attitude that you get what you pay for? I say let's reach for quality, but beware of greed. When you look to the great masters of your tradition, ask yourself how much they paid for their instruction, and what was the size of the class they attended. Respectfully, Bobby Whittemore Richmond Virginia USA __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "FRANK CLAY" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 14:51:52 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ship Sam Seh Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I believe this is a rough translation of the Song of Thirteen Postures. According to Barbara Davis, there is no author attributed to it. Her translation from the book The Taijiquan Classics; An Annotated Translation with Chen Weiming. "Thirteen Postures Song Shisan Shi Ge The Thirteen Postures should not be taken lightly, their meaning and origin are in the yao. Changes and turns, empty and full, must be paid attention to; the qi is everywhere in the body, without the slightest obstruction. In stillness there is stirring, in movement [one is] as if still; accord with the opponent's changes and show wonders. Use one's yi to ponder each posture; when attained, it will feel as if it is without effort. At every moment keep the attention in the yao; [if] the belly is thoroughly relaxed, [then] the qi soars. The weilu is straight and the spirit connects to the head-top; the whole body is light and free-moving, the head-top as if suspended. Carefully pay attention, analyze and study; in flexing and extending, and opening and closing, allow for spontaneity. To enter into study one must have oral teachings; to labor without rest is the method for cultivating oneself. In speaking of theory and practice, what is the standard? Yi and qi are the lord, the bones and the flesh are the subjects. What is the purpose of this [discipline]? To lenghten one's life, extend one's years and to give one an ageless springtime. Oh sing, oh sing, these one hundred forty zi [characters]; each zi is true and accurate, with no omissions. If you don't study this carefully, [you] will be wasting effor, leaving regretful sighs." {from The Taijiquan Classics; an annotated translation including a commentary with Chen Weiming by Barbara Davis.Published by North Atlantic Books, Berkley CA, ISBN 1-55643-431-6 (pbk.)} This is but one translation. If you read and compare several the ideas in it will become clearer. This is not something that Hwang Kee created, but is something which is considered a classical text. The term "Classics" was used at least as early as 1900. Yang Lu Chan is said to have included a copy of this in his Yang Style classics circa 1911. This predates the MDK's existence which was founded Nov 9, 1947. Hope this helps. Frank --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:59:16 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: KO-Online Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean swords Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "Jim, >I checked out the site but I didn't see anything about Korean swords. >Did I miss something?" We do sell Korean swords in a limited quantity. We are allowed to bring back 1 sword per visitor to Seoul. Our Kumdo association here in ND/MN travels for training & testing about 6 times a year. I see who is not purchasing a sword for their own use & have them bring back one for a customer. http://www.rrtkd.com/sword.html shows some photos of the swords. Let me know if you have any other questions please. Jim --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 15:25:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: doing it for the money Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From James Allison: [snip] >So why is it that it is not ok to charge a premium price for what we are >teaching. If you really want to elevate the quality of martial arts we >have to stop giving it away. I understand and tend to agree with Mr. Allison: At work, we've been told time and time again that when the consumer has a stake in their health care (i.e. we pay an increasing portion of the insurance premium, and a portion of any treatments), that we will make better choices, value it more, not take it for granted, or take advantage of it. I think someone who commits themselves on multiple levels (emotional, physical and financial) *may* find more value in their training. Granted we all want the best value for our buck. However, if something is free (or cheap), does the average person really value it? On the flip side, as an instructor, I would imagine you are also compelled to provide value to your students consistent with the emotional, physical and financial rewards that you receive. In the spirit, Mark ------------------ It's the love that you give, In the hour you live That's the measure of the life you lead. ~ Ronnie Milsap --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest