Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:43:02 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #501 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: TSD Dan Bons (Ray Terry) 2. Re: Minimum Standards (Bruce Sims) 3. RE: Hapkido terminology (CStovall@nucorar.com) 4. Re: Compensation (Bruce Sims) 5. Hapkido terminology (J R Hilland) 6. Standardization (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 7. Dan numbers (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 8. RE: Opening a school (Master Lugo) 9. Re: Re: Compensation (Ray Terry) 10. Re: Dan numbers (Ray Terry) 11. Congrats (Braeswood Martial Arts) 12. Dan numbers (Ray Terry) 13. Re: TSD Dan Bons (Bernard Redfield) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TSD Dan Bons To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:23:14 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Speaking of old time MDKers, is Dale T. Droullard still active? Or still alive? Seems like his number was in the 700s somewhere. I guess that would make him the senior most American.?.?. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:56:34 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Minimum Standards Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: "...... I'm not sure it is useful to describe the locks in this way.If it is, don't Marc Tedeschi's book and He-Young Kimm's books already do that in abundance? What is added by this new description?...." The key is not in the description. The only reason that I included the description was so people would /could identify the technique and off their take on giving it a label that we could all agree on. You are absolutely right. Kimm has his numbering system as does Ji. Myung uses names as does Kim. Seo uses a combination of numbers AND labels. What we don't have is a taxonomy or nomenclature that we can agree on as a Hapkido community. I think this is one big reason that most people shy away from technical discussions. Nobody want to learn 6 major lines of taxonomy for the same family of arts. If we could all agree that X....X is the term that means a particular family of techniques, Y...Y is the name of a particular concept, etc etc and then make sure we have a Korean equivalent (which may or may not be the translation) I think we could expand our discussions to more productive things than just venting opinions on personalities and their behaviors, yes? FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:01:11 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hapkido terminology Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> This is right on the money. The most logical way to build a common vocabulary is to approach it from the accepted medical terminology coupled with knowledge and understanding of how the joints function. Boy, if I ever get a good MD as a student or training partner... On a related note...has anyone seen Scott Sonnon's 'Arthrokinetics' video series? From what I understand, this is basically the approach that he's taken. The purpose is to focus on understanding the function and mechanics of the joints, as opposed to the traditional approach which is to teach and understand "fighting techniques". This way, you are no longer a "slave" to technique. By understanding the body, you can start to create your own technique. In other words, you can figure out on your own many of those million ways to hyper-extend the elbow like Dakin mentioned. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 09:02:57 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Compensation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....He may, or may not, be the father of Hapkido. But he was w/o a doubt a very mean and very money hungry man....." I never knew the man, but since we are talking about the nature of conpensation and not the personality of Choi Yong Sul, I am not sure that really matters. The point I was making was that Choi and goodly number of others operated their instruction out of very humble locations, or borrowed the use of other peoples locations. I have not been able to find any resources that suggest that instruction in MA pivots onan economically successful enterprize. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:09:40 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido terminology Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce: I am going to side with Dakin on this one. I also had trouble following your terminology and the specific variation. This is why I did not comment originally. As far as a standard, I use the chogupsul (basic 1-10), then we go to a conceptual catalog of techniques from there. Every organization has basics (or standards) and while the techniques are generally the same, the variations are different. You are looking at specific techniques to determine a standard for hapkidoin. After all, many of the techniques have been around for a very long time and are found in other arts. Trying to say that a specific group of techniques are the standard for hapkidoin is a very hard, if not impossible, thing to do. What about the underlying principle that make hapkido unique? There are many principles of motion in hapkido, such as the extension of the ki finger and the use of the ki hand. Then you have the 3 theories of basic motion. 30 degree theory, etc. But these can also be found in kuksulwon (kuksulkwan hapkido). Jere R. Hilland www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:42:38 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Standardization Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce; In the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan there is a minimum standard set up and it works very well. All gup students receive a manual from the federation, and dans receive a dan manual. Instructors are required to teach to at least this minimum standard for testing and rank promotion but are not limited to it. JC --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:46:41 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We must be careful, Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim began the dan bon for the Moo Duk Kwan with his first Cho Dan student Dan Bon 1. This has not been broken and now is up around 45,000. many former Moo Duk Kwan members use a Dan Bon system for administrative purposes but is not the same. As far as I know the Moo Duk Kwan is the only organization that has the Dan Bon History beginning a Dan Number 1 to the present since 1947. JC --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: 23 Nov 2004 20:03:18 -0000 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "Master Lugo" Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Opening a school Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I had run a full time school for 4 years now and was able to grow my school by 300% due largely to my experience that accumulated over the years. I started training in 1979 and since then began working on sharpening my teaching, social and business skills for the last 15 years. The last four years I seen and heard of 18 schools go out of business, 20 are not making any add'l income and 15 borderline staying alive.Changes are that 8 out of 10 schools will go under. If your just a 1st dan don't fool yourself, you will most likely go under in the first year. I had offer my knowledge in the past via seminar to people in the past but was rarely called. However, I do receive multiple calls to buy their schools after they realized that they can't make it. If your serious about running a school and HAVE THE OK FROM YOUR INSTRUCTOR, I will be more than happy to share my knowledge, otherwise keep your day job. MASTER LUGO Black Belt Fitness Center This message and any associated files is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Compensation To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:42:52 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ".....He may, or may not, be the father of Hapkido. > But he was w/o a doubt a very mean and very money > hungry man....." > > I never knew the man, but since we are talking about > the nature of conpensation and not the personality of > Choi Yong Sul, I am not sure that really matters. The > point I was making was that Choi and goodly number of > others operated their instruction out of very humble > locations, or borrowed the use of other peoples > locations. Very humble or borrowed locations... That pretty much describes all of South Korea in the 1950s and 60s. Bruce, I suspect we are mostly in agreement here. It is just that I'm not sure Gm Choi is a good example of someone teaching MAs for the betterment of mankind or for the sake of the art. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Dan numbers To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:13:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > system for administrative purposes but is not the same. As far as I know the > Moo Duk Kwan is the only organization that has the Dan Bon History beginning a > Dan Number 1 to the present since 1947. 1947? What happened to 45 and 46? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:20:51 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Congrats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Congrat Lawren, I am sorry I missed seeing you in action. Congratulations, I know how hard you have been training. Now you and everyone with HKMA and have their Sunday's back to themselves :) Kat --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:50:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > 1947? What happened to 45 and 46? Whoops, sorry. Clearly the MDK would not have produced any dans in the two months left in 1945 after the kwan's doors opened. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:31:29 -0500 From: Bernard Redfield To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TSD Dan Bons Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<<<<> MC Reply > Bernard, > An excellent resource. I couldn't figure out how to view the page > without sound (good thing I have a door to close in my office, instead > of a cube):-) > I'd say you have 80+% of the large TSD org's in the US listed with > their KJN's and Dan #. Interesting to learn that Cheezic is Senior to > Norris and both to Dr. Beauduin. > There are a few missing I'm curious about..... > T.M. Kim (maybe Dong Moon) currently 9th Dan Global TSD > Chong Su Kim's Dan Bon is not listed (KJN of Pan Am TSD) > Darryl Khalid is I believe slightly junior to Dr. Beauduin, but a 7th > Dan also. > Kang Uk Lee is not listed at all. I will look for his Dan Bon in his > paperback book tonight. > > YIJD, > > MC>>>>>>> Dear Master Richards, Thank you for the compliment, I put a lot of hrs into research for this and talked to a lot of Masters and Grand Masters to get what I have. I have been surprised to see it has been used by a few other sites, in some instances instead of a link to it, just the text was copied(spelling errors and all) and re-designed, ha ha , oh well the info was intended to be shared with anyone who wants it. Any additions to the chronology can be e-mailed to me and I will be happy to follow up on them , especially the other 20% I don't have : ) http://pages.cthome.net/redtsd/page2.html I talked to Chong Su Kim awhile back but didn't feel it was proper at that time to ask him his MDK Dan Bon, same with T.M. kim, Funny story, after talking to a GM who I will not mention, and asking alot of questions, he asked me a few, then three days later I received an application to join his organization, his closest school was like 400 miles away from me! I didn't put in Kang Uk Lee in because he isn't active in the U.S. but I may expand my site eventually to include Country by Country. but that's a lot of work and time I don't have right now. On my tacky music, most PC Explorer browsers the little speaker icon in the right corner can be clicked and a pop up volume control will appear if you have a mac the 3rd and 4th buttons from the top right of the key board are the ticket ;) bernard --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest