Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:11:08 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #503 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on behemoth2.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Dale T. Droullard (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 2. 1947 (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. Re: Common Language (Bruce Sims) 4. follow ups (Charles Richards) 5. rambling (Charles Richards) 6. Most Senior Active (Charles Richards) 7. A Taxonomy of Locks (Burdick, Dakin R) 8. Kip with the good yip (michael tomlinson) 9. Re: Dale T. Drouillard (Ray Terry) 10. Happy Turkey Day! (Ray Terry) 11. Re: Re: Common Language (Dante) 12. RE: re: minimum standards (Howard Kicks) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:44:24 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dale T. Droullard Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Droullard is not active with the Moo Duk Kwan as far as I know. The most senior American is Lawrence Seiberlich Sa Bom Nim. He is an 8th Dan. Dan Bon 1815. JC --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:54:31 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] 1947 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Terry; As for the Dan numbers. I do not have a reference with me, (I am at a remote location). I believe however that 1947 was when Hwang Kee promoted his first Cho Dan. If I remember he did not have any students make it to Cho Dan from Novemver 1945 through 1946. I can check but as I said I am not at the Do-Jang due to the holidays. JC --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 05:21:36 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Common Language Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: I am writing to thank each and every one who either wrote, or desired to write, in response to my post regarding a common language. Believe it or not your posts were warmly received and have helped me to appreciate something which I had suspected but for which I had no real evidence. For a few years I felt a strong but vague confusion (call it a "mixed message") regarding what people said versus what people were doing. One of the most clearly defined issues was that of practitioners of Hapkido arts being able to interact harmoniously with each other. What I thought I saw was a confusing ambivalence in which people wanted to work together, true enough, but also wanting to maintain their individuality and autonomy. The thoughtful and candid responses have gone a long way in confirming this. I think I can safely conclude from your responses that, while it would be nice to work together, and folks WILL work together when opportunities present themselves, what is prized above working together is the individuality and independence each of you enjoy in your own efforts. The implications of this are intriguing. Through a number of discussions we have considered why Korean nationals have not worked together to bind the community closer together. We have occasionally considered why the Hapkido community splintered, and continues to splinter as it does. Perhaps we have, as have I, underestimated the strength of peoples' need to put their own personal "stamp" or "spin" on what they do. Again, thank you very much for your responses and for helping frame the nature of our community a bit more clearly (at least for me). FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 05:22:36 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] follow ups Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Couple of follow ups I'm going to guess Shin, Jae Chul kept his office setup the same when he stopped running the USTSDMDK and started WTSDA. I'm gonna guess the 1st WTSDA Dan Bon is the number after the last USTSDMDK number he issued. Many of the WTSDA Senior Masters like Beauduin, Khalid (former), Chambliss and Weichel have cho dans issued before 1982 and retain the origional Dan Bon... Master Dunn, comments or corrections? Going a step further I'd say the first WTSDA gup and dan manuals are probably similar to Hwang Kee's manuals, and surprisingly Pan Am TSD (Chong Su Kim KJN) gup manual looks like the WTSDA manual with a different "Who is the Grandmaster" page and cover.... Heck, I even took Master Mac's manual and cut and pasted my own wisdom into our gup manual, and have concepts from the WTSDA gup manual in terms of layout and things included. Master Terry, I haven't cheked in awhile, but Master Druliard's website is something like first american TSD..and has his Dan Bon in the website. Bernard you are correct about out of USA orgs, that could be a life's work, I included Lee, Kang Uk because I think his Dan Bon is like 70, putting him in the era with Kim, Jae Jhoon. And BTW I like Mortal Combat. It tells me you've updated your website if you no longer have Eye of the Tiger :-) Thanks for the tip on browsers as I am often online at the office and can now mute the background music if my officemates don't like Mortal Combat looped :0) YIJD, MC --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 05:37:36 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] rambling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear list, Just sharing. I was running late after work and asked my wife to bend the rules and let Niko Sa Ja Nim attend the 7:40 beginner's class since he does not have school this week. Did my heart good to see the family in the dojang. And good to see his sparring and focus improving. Monday night he read some hooked on phonics books to his sister and I, and we had a 30 minute private lesson before his bedtime. I can think of few things more rewarding. Then the only person to show up for adult class was my 20 y/o Yellow Belt. So we did all his KiCho Hyungs (actually felt good to do those patterns and see how many basics I could find to focus on). Then we did all the kicks he needs to know on the paddles, which allowed me to push the bionic ankle a little working on the jumping and spinning variations (actually broke up some scar tissue!). This young man falls pretty good and makes me look better than Gumby (Jo Kyo), plus he has all the pressure points at the surface, so we traded on mok chogupsul, sure felt good to share mat introductions with someone. You know you're twisted when you get a warm fuzzy when your student gives you a good throw and makes you tap for real on the pin :-) Had just enough time to work some real basic khali drills in before class ended with both of us sweaty and smiling. Have a great and safe holiday weekend! MC --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 05:55:37 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Most Senior Active Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i read "I'm also curious as to who the most senior dan bon still actively teaching/involved in an organization is?" MC Reply Korean - Kim, Jae Jhoon KJN Dan Bon #38 American, I'm gonna Gues Cheezic as he is senior to Beauduin, unless Cheezic is no longer active. Beauduin is still active in CT and is a direct student of Shin, Jae Chul KJN YIJD MC --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:15:24 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin R" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] A Taxonomy of Locks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: >What we don't have is a taxonomy or nomenclature that we can agree on as a Hapkido community. Yes, I agree with you there. Too often we have a great list of numbered tricks (do yellow belt technique #18 -- "uh, what is that one again?") or even an attempt to describe the 3,000 techniques of hapkido (or however many one says there are). If we are looking for a taxonomy of locks, what not use one based on principles and concepts. Here's my suggestion: 1. Bar: a hyperextension of an extended hinge joint. These include: elbow bar, knee bar, shoulder bar (which doesn't fit the taxonomy exactly!) 2. Compression: When a hinge joint is forced to close beyond the limits of the joint. These include: gooseneck, chickenneck, wrist compression, Indian death lock, etc. 3. Dorsal rotation: In the arms, this involves a supination of the hand and rotation up and outward away from the armpit. In the legs this involves rotation towards the butt. These include: three quarter turn, shihonage, Kotegaeshi, wrist twist, 4 corner throw, fan lock, etc. 4. Frontal rotation: In the arms this involves a pronation of the hand and rotation down and inward toward the armpit. In the legs, this involves rotation away from the butt. These include: quarter turn jointlock, snake lock, z lock, corkscrew, hammerlock, etc. Note: A snake lock (nikyo) is a bit different -- sort of a frontal rotation with a shoulder bar and wrist compression tossed in. 5. Chokes: Constriction of the neck with the aim of restricting blood flow or air flow or both. Not to be confused with a neck break. Within each of these basic categories, I have descriptive names for specific applications of the technique that lend a metaphor and hopefully add visualization for the proper execution of the technique. To me, finding those metaphors and analogies is at the heart of teaching the locks. Some of the ones I use include: fan lock, snake lock, yee-ha, pledge of allegiance, etc. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:56:39 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kip with the good yip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kip writes: I feel we should spend more energy out on the mat training in good martial arts -- that's how we keep hapkido from being divided into its respective camps. Eventually the weak will die off. I think I'll just focus on changing my little corner of the hapkido world for the positive. I concur wholeheartedly with Kip on this.. my favorite moments in Hapkido involve being on the mat sweating, laughing, and learning. IMHO this is how you form a true brotherhood with people and build strong technique and Hapkido bonds. I trust those Hapkidoin I have sweated with and hurt with and I distrust those who evade or detour from this kind of training. I am of the same mindset that I'll take care of my own little Hapkido world and try to train hard... Bravo Kip I like your succinct and honest take on Hapkido.... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Dale T. Drouillard To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:41:45 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Looks like GM Drouillard is still actively teaching TSD MDK and thus still the senior most American MDKer. Check out: http://www.dearbornfordcenter.com/fitness/TangSooDoMooKwan.htm Great to hear that he is still with us after all these years! Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 09:00:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Happy Turkey Day! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wishing all y'all out there (in the US of A) a great Thanksgiving and a very enjoyable long weekend. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 11:02:00 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Dante To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Common Language Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims wrote: Through a number of discussions we have considered why Korean nationals have not worked together to bind the community closer together. We have occasionally considered why the Hapkido community splintered, and continues to splinter as it does. Perhaps we have, as have I, underestimated the strength of peoples' need to put their own personal "stamp" or "spin" on what they do. -------------- Mr. Sims, I enjoy your posts of historical information and I appreciate the time such research takes. I infer from this post an underlying disappointment or distaste for what you describe. I would suggest that your inferences as to the responses you received are your own spin. Certainly the TKD world is no better off because a side kick is a side kick, a heel/wheel kick is understood by all and a back stance is a back stance in whatever language is spoken. Although my experience with what I would call "organizational" HKD is limited, my experience with many of the techniques is not. What I have found to be a blessing is the joy with which people can get on the mat and work techniques without needing to know what to call them. It is the joy of expression and endless possibilities which I find to be the beauty of HKD, like the beauty of a TKD form when done with totality of focus. Yes, to be termed a particular style should have a basis of techniques, but I don't see the expansion of techniqes as a personal stamp or spin that keeps HKD splintered. Politics and egos do that, not a lack of specific, exact and similar names of techniques. Peace and blessings, Dante Dante J. James, Esq. Project Director AA-VIP 303-830-1105 Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional VOTE - Your future depends on it! --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Howard Kicks" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] re: minimum standards Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:31:55 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Do you truely believe that one can be a legitimate 9 Dan in the art of Tae Kwon Do as well as the art of Hap Ki Do? The answer is NO. HK >From: "Alejandro Martinez" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] re: minimum standards >Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 12:21:24 +1000 > >Dear all: > >While Mr. Simms efforts towards achieving a standard for hapkido is >commendable (I really enjoyed reading about his historical findings for >techniques such as the roundhouse kick), I found this limiting, at least >from >the point of view of the "Art". > >Certainly, you cannot use such rigid terms as taxonomy to something as >alive, >fluid, and formless as an "art". And is it not "art'" the very essence of >what is different between what we practice some others form of physical >activity? > >My point is that even if Mr. Simms succeeds (which I very much doubt) in >producing a standard of techniques, that standard (his own) can be seen as >a >limitation to what otherwise should be the exploration and exploitation of >an >intractable number of possibilities... > >Having said that, I am not against standards. I personally follow the one >established by my instructor (Grandmaster Sang Sung Lee, 9th dan in both >hapkido and taekwondo), but I do not feel limited by those standards to >modify >some of the techniques learned from him, given e.g. individual >anatomic-physiological differences. And I am sure there were, are, and >will >be as many standards as schools and leaders... > >fwiw. > >Alejandro Martinez. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest