Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:17:07 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #509 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. 4th Degree, Master or not? (michaelshawn@sunsetjazz.com) 2. Re: Northern Delaware TKD Dojang ? (Chris and Cindy) 3. Names and numbers (Charles Richards) 4. Names of techniques (michael tomlinson) 5. Do-Jang (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 6. Founder of Tang Soo Do (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 7. Re: 4th Degree, Master or not? (Ray Terry) 8. Founder of Tang Soo Do (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 9. Generic names (Ray Terry) 10. Re: Northern Delaware TKD Dojang ? (Ray Terry) 11. Hwang Kee version of history (Howard Kicks) 12. Korean found in translation (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: To: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 01:18:21 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] 4th Degree, Master or not? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When you get your 4th Dan, does that include the title of "Master" or is that title granted only if you have that rank and are teaching classes i.e. Master Instructor.? Thanks, MS --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:20:42 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Chris and Cindy Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Northern Delaware TKD Dojang ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jerry, My dojang is located in Southern Delaware, Seaford to be more exact. This would be a bit of a commute - approximately 1 1/2 hours...more during the summer with the beach traffic. But, feel free to check out my web site www.usblackbelts.com and e-mail or call me with any questions. I am aware of a number of dojangs in the New Castle County area but I only know of the training and reputation of a select few. -Chris >Hi all, >For some background... > >I'm 50 years old and suffer from type 2 diabetes, high blood >preasure, and asthma (this isn't a joke, really!). I studied tkd when >I lived in Northern NJ for about 5 years. Due to complications I >won't get into here, I had to stop some 5 years ago. I'm now living >in Newark, Delaware (right in between Philadelphia and Baltimore). > >I was wondering if anyone knew of a dojang in this neck of the woods >that might be willing to take my various illness issues into account >(I'm cleared by my doc to train btw) and work with me so that I could >have a reasonable "ramp up" and training program ??? > >Thanks in advance for your hep folks. > >While I don't hardly ever post, I've been on the list for many many >years and find it wonderful to read. > >Jerry --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:47:53 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Names and numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "In the schools and style of Hapkido that I am familiar with all wrist techniques are numbered. This is not the way human memory works. It needs a name or hook to hang the memory on. ( this is why we have website names which are linked to IP numbers.. No one cares what the IP of the site is because they wouldn't remember it anyway. ) If you could assign a name and description to a group of basic techniques I am sure it would help on several levels." MC Reply Having had two Hapkido Masters and training under 5 different instructors (and still don't have a cho dan), I have to agree with Bruce. I would say one of the best manuals, as far as avialability and photo quality is Dr. Kimm's series. He uses a numbering system. GM West's Klan does also, including the out of town instructors. It does make things easy for the exact kind of communication you're talking about. I have GM West's ChoGupSul tape and am using it as a basis so students know what I will be asking for at certain levels, and as a common basis. In contrast, I started HKD in Sun Moo Kwan and Master Allison had a name for each techinque (in english BTW) that kinda told you what you did to poor uke :-) Folding Elbow Lock and Figure 4 lock are pretty easy to remember just like hip throw and one arm shoulder throw. When I started Moja Kwan, I didn't want testing to be about how many techniques a gup could memorize and in what order, but more about how well they could do a technique (storing it in muscle memory). Thus I would say things to my students like these techniques are wrist reversals, these are forearm twists, these are elbow locks/arm bars. That worked except nobody could remember more than 3-5 techniques unless I demonstrated the technique first, and then they'd say oh yeah that one, and then they could do it. So Bruce and I agree the mind needs a name/hook/association to pull that information out of the database again. None of my students can remember chogupsul by the numbers, but they can do the ones I have taught them much better as we have focused practice instead of me bouncing all over the full cirriculum :-) And by having numbers I can index myself to be sure I don't skip anything. Most of my intermediate and advanced can do and fall out of all 30 now. The beginners I have work on all the techniques without "triangle stepping" (my name). Now on yudo throws I use the english names as Master Allison and his instructors taught me. We teach 6 basic throws from Red Belt to Cho Dan. In the end, my dan bo students must evade to either side, use hands, kicks, joint manipulations and throws in the step sparring portion of the dan test. I'm not really worried about a name or a number, just the effectiveness of their response to a threat. YIJD, MC --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:06:52 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Names of techniques Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Very early on in my training with one of Master Whalens first generation black belts Steve Mortel we actually spent close to a year going over the entire KHA curriculum and changing the terminology to english instead of numbers. Since that time I categorize every Hapkido technique according to our terminology. Simple phrases in the beginning categorize your initial movement and then the name of the technique.... things like: step out, step in, turn out turn in, step under, step behind, short x step, deep x step, step across, triangle step, etc... etc... after a while you can actually visualize the movement of the technique just from the terminology.... so in essence... we have already done what is being put into motion on here,, we just did it 14 years ago.... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:07:35 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Do-Jang Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jerry; Go to the web site www.soobahkdo.com on that site there is a link called find a studio. You simply type I the state and all certified studios will appear with instructors name, location, rank, phone and e-mail address. I am sure if there is a studio close to you it would be worth visiting. Good Luck with your search. JC --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:11:01 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Founder of Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Mac I agree the NAME of Tang Soo Do was used by Won Kuk Lee, and that Hwan Kee did not create the name. What I am saying is that by the 1960's the NAME Tang Soo Do became known as a specific style of martial arts founded by Hwang Kee. The name Tang Soo Do was not being used as a generic term like Karate. JC --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 4th Degree, Master or not? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:37:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > When you get your 4th Dan, does that include the title of "Master" or is > that title granted only if you have that rank and are teaching classes i.e. > Master Instructor.? That will depend on the style and the organization. I believe in USTU TKD 4th is considered master rank. In many other styles and organizations a master rank is higher than 4th. Other comments? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:32:03 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Founder of Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank The confusion comes from the generic name of Tang Soo Do used by Won Kuk Lee, and Hwang Kee as a way to gain recognition from the general public. The name was simply used to say I teach Karate. The name was recognizable to the public. You are correct that Hwang Kee did not create or found the name Tang Soo Do nor was he the first to use the name. However by the 1960's the name Tang Soo Do became more than a generic name. It became known as a particular martial arts system taught by Hwang Kee at the Moo Duk Kwan Schools. So, you are right that Hwang Kee did not found the name Tang Soo Do, but the art known as Tang Soo Do that is different. Do you believe that what was taught by Won Kuk Lee at the Chung Do Kwan school was exactly the same as what was taught at the Moo Duk Kwan by Hwang Kee. I doubt it. After the unification Hwang Kee was the only one of the 5 original Kwans left, so the name became associated with him and the Moo Duk Kwan. The name Tang Soo Do was no longer generic like Karate. Hwang Kee became known as the founder of the style known as Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. Some people training in TKD today may be able to trace their linage back to the Chung Do Kwan and Won Kuk Lee or one of the other original 5, but I believe people today training in Tang Soo Do will trace their linage back and find Hwang Kee to be the founder. JC --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:32:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Generic names Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I agree the NAME of Tang Soo Do was used by Won Kuk Lee, and that Hwan Kee did > not create the name. What I am saying is that by the 1960's the NAME Tang Soo > Do became known as a specific style of martial arts founded by Hwang Kee. The > name Tang Soo Do was not being used as a generic term like Karate. By the 1960s Tang Soo Do was a generic name for Korean Karate, esp so in the US. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Northern Delaware TKD Dojang ? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:56:22 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > won't get into here, I had to stop some 5 years ago. I'm now living > in Newark, Delaware (right in between Philadelphia and Baltimore). > > I was wondering if anyone knew of a dojang in this neck of the woods > that might be willing to take my various illness issues into account > (I'm cleared by my doc to train btw) and work with me so that I could > have a reasonable "ramp up" and training program ??? Jerry, Looks like downtown Philly is about an hour away.?.?. Are Philly and/or Baltimore too far away to consider schools in those locales? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Howard Kicks" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:32:04 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwang Kee version of history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Gladewater; It seems painfully clear the only version of korean martial kwan history you have bothered to read is Hwang Kee's version. Perhaps you should spread your wings and fly further in your investigation. HK _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:12:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean found in translation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... I would like to announce several major updates to the website at http://www.KoreanYes.com (http://www.KoreanYes1.net). 1) Korean found in translation 2) ShipBai Sajun (Ten-fold Dictionary) of Common-Chinese available through Koryo Sujug 3) American edge: Americans learning Korean and Korean becoming American 1) Korean found in translation First, a section called "Korean found in translation(KFIT)" has been added. Subtitled 'a daily report from East-Asia', it contains 25 articles originally in Korean from a major national general circulation newspaper. Attached to each Korean article is the English translation, also from the paper itself. The 25 articles cover a variety of writing style as well as a good variety of levels of speech. Topically, articles were selected from business, trade, investment, politics, military, medicine, technology, entertainment, celebrity interviews, opinions, editorials and movie criticism, just about what you would find in NY Times or Washington Post. Indeed, were one to replace the Korean names, we could just as easily be reading NY Times or Washington Post. The student will be able to see at a single glance what is pure-Korean, what is hangulized Common-Chinese(RED), and what is hangulized English(BLUE) in the context of a real-life discourse. This analysis is available for both the Korean original and the English translation. There is a third analysis of each article into X'ed-Korean, where all the Common-Chinese(RED) and English(BLUE) are transformed into "X". X'ed-Korean analysis brings into clear outline the fullness of the pure-Korean frame. The X'ed-Korean analysis should be useful as a tool for assessing how far the student is along in understanding the pure-Korean part of modern Korean. I think it would surprise most heritage students and Korean-American students, and I hope to the point of being very encouraging, that they already know almost all of the pure-Korean frame, which is sometimes referred to humorously as "kitchen Korean". Indeed, a six-year-old Korean child would be hard pressed to find a word he does not already know in "All Korean Words" section or the structure in any X'ed-Korean analysis of the articles. As for the non-heritage students, he should discover that these "kitchen Korean" words and the X'ed-Korean structures are pretty much what he has been struggling with over the last 3 years of Korean language study, and precisely what is covered in his textbooks. 2) ShipBai Sajun (Ten-Fold Dictionary) available: "Character Problem/No-Character Problem" Resolved Character Problem: For the students of Japanese and Chinese, there is no escaping Chinese characters, with the added complexity in the Japanese case created by the peculiar Japanese habit of forcing the Chinese characters into the role of ideograms, but a habit from which foreign scholars greatly benefit from. And at the level of written Chinese and Japanese, the student will be a certifiable illiterate until he has mastered at least 2 to 3 thousand Chinese characters. It is a simple case of all or nothing, with no possibility of "delayed learning of Chinese characters" in the case of written Japanese and Chinese. And it is this absence of "delayed learning of Chinese characters" which is responsible for the horrific attrition rate among the western students of Chinese and Japanese and the significant rate of real illiteracy amongst the Japanese and Chinese themselves. No-Character Problem: After seeing how much of modern-Korean is a SEA OF RED (or Common-Chinese), a serious student of modern-Korean should realize that not mastering Common-Chinese is basically not understanding 80% of modern-Korean, and restricting himself to the embarrassingly childish kitchen-Korean. And since he can at best expect to see 3 to 6 Chinese characters in any stretch of modern Korean text, and no character at all in any conversation, he can at best expect very little payoff from learning the Chinese characters. That is the dilemma posed by the hangulized Common-Chinese in modern Korean. And don't expect the situation to change: no publisher concerned about the bottom line is out to prove that their reading public doesn't know the untaught Chinese characters. American Advantage: First advantage derives from the fact that the English speaking Korean-Americans already know English. And almost all of Common-Chinese in red are meaning-translations of precisely those English terms. This fact should be clear by looking at what is in RED in the English translations. Just about everything that is modern in Korean is expressed in Common-Chinese, which are simple meaning-translations of English words or phrases. Law, business, finance, trade, negotiation, business organization, contracts, medicine, technology, mathematics, everything that is taught with great difficulty in Korean is largely translation of English words and phrases. Actually, no Korean speaker can really hope to learn English without having a full understanding and knowledge of the syllables in Common-Chinese words that translate English. After all, Common-Chinese is as much foreign and as much Martian to Korean as is English. Right now, most Koreans are learning English using a language, Common-Chinese, which they know only as a string of meaningless sounds. ShipBai Sajun (Ten-Fold Dictionary) Advantage But the real advantage that the Korean-Americans have over East-Asians in learning Common-Chinese is the 10X learning curve identified in the KoreanYes.com website. Basically, the student can multiply his command of Common-Chinese ten-fold with each word he masters. After learning just 700 words, he will fully command 7,000 words of Common-Chinese. Basically, by organizing the study of Common-Chinese words in a way implemented by the Korean-Americans can learn Common-Chinese ten times faster than anybody in East-Asia, and this can be done with and without learning the Chinese characters. The work is structured to be equally useful to Koreans in learning English, but until they manage to overcome the irrational sensitivities about sharing Common-Chinese with both the Chinese and Japanese, and accept the fact that their modernity is reflected in the translations of English modernity into Common-Chinese, they can only continue their English-lament(yung-u ta.ryung). Best Wishes to All the Students, JooBai Lee 11/29/04 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest