Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 03:02:56 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #510 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Master Rank (J.R. West) 2. Re: 4th Degree, Master or not? (Neil Burton) 3. JC - TSD (Frank Clay) 4. RE: 4th Degree, Master or not? (Rick Clark) 5. Re: Names and Numbers (Bruce Sims) 6. Hwang Kees version of history (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 7. RE: 4th Degree, Master or not? (Neil Burton) 8. 4th Dan Titles (Charles Richards) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:52:37 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net " In many other styles and organizations a master rank is higher than 4th. Other comments?" Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com In the mid 1960's, the ranks were classified in English as: 1 - 3 dan - student dan 4th dan - Instructor 5th dan - Senior instructor 6th dan - Chief instructor 7 - 9 dan - Master ranks 10th dan - Dead or extremely sleepy There was no such title as GM or Supreme GM or any other such titles....J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:38:33 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Burton Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] 4th Degree, Master or not? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ITF Master is 7-8th and GM is 9th --- Ray Terry wrote: > > When you get your 4th Dan, does that include the > title of "Master" or is > > that title granted only if you have that rank and > are teaching classes i.e. > > Master Instructor.? > > That will depend on the style and the organization. > I believe in USTU TKD > 4th is considered master rank. In many other styles > and organizations a > master rank is higher than 4th. > > Other comments? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:57:24 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] JC - TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Nevertheless, to say that Hwang Kee founded something he did not, is misinformation. Also you said: "Do you believe that what was taught by Won Kuk Lee at the Chung Do Kwan school was exactly the same as what was taught at the Moo Duk Kwan by Hwang Kee." You do realize that the Chung Do Kwan was teaching the same hyung prior to the formation of the MDK? In fact, Master Duk, Son Song still teaches them today, which is something the MDK is moving away from. Tang Soo Do means the same thing as Karate, as in China Hand. Nothing more, and nothing less. Hwang Kee formed a specific ryu pa with specific characteristics. Frank --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] 4th Degree, Master or not? Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Neil Burton [mailto:neil_burton37@yahoo.com] > ITF Master is 7-8th and GM is 9th >> --- Ray Terry wrote: > > That will depend on the style and the organization. > > I believe in USTU TKD > > 4th is considered master rank. In many other styles > > and organizations a > > master rank is higher than 4th. > > > > Other comments? I have always felt that a 5th dan was the first rank that a person is considered as an instructor. 1st and 2nd dan are student ranks, 3rd and 4th are competitors ranks and 5th dan is the first of the teaching ranks. To me a master instructor is someone who is currently teaching teachers. So from this perspective you would have to be an instructor who is teaching at least one 5th dan. Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:28:19 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Names and Numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Charles: ".....So Bruce and I agree the mind needs a name/hook/association to pull that information out of the database again. None of my students can remember chogupsul by the numbers, but they can do the ones I have taught them much better as we have focused practice instead of me bouncing all over the full curriculum......" Its hard to know which way to move on this. The numbers ARE convenient as long as everyone decides to use the same numbering system. And I certainly agree that having a numbering system helps keep from avoiding those drudge techniques we all have so we have more time for the nifty techniques people like to do. But, If I have to correlate my #? to the same technique in your numbering system it seems like we are back to square one as far as being able to communicate about what we do. Using labels is nice but there are about a half dozen approaches to identifying the techniques from street names, to sports terms, to simple labels made up of how techniques are done. In addition we still don't have the problem solved about how to engage our Korean counterparts since they seem to be dealing with the same problems but in a completely different language. I remember GM Myung getting angry with me for using a Japanese term (O-soto-gari) to identify a sweep, but everyone who was party to what we were discussing immediately knew what technique I was talking about. I envy the Judo folks who are able to communicate readily about their art without having to cross-reference terms for the same technique. I suppose we are really talking about a two-step process. Step One: Establish a common taxonomy. Step Two: Get people to use it on a regular basis, yes? FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:48:26 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwang Kees version of history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Hicks I have read many other martial artist versions of history. I was also a member of the World Tae Kwon Do Federation, and the East Texas Kung Fu Exchange. I usually only reply to those post I feel confident in, most of which deal with Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do and Moo Duk Kwan. This is not because I have not been introduced to other versions of history but because most of the time I agree with the Hwang Kee version. If I don't agree I will try and stay open minded to other opinions, and although I respect other styles like Hapkido, I will rarely post because my experience in that art is not extensive. Now let me ask you. Of the 5 original Kwan founders which version do you believe to be most accurate? JC --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:24:28 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Burton Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] 4th Degree, Master or not? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For ITF TKD a fifth Dan would have to have (in theory) a bear minimum of 17 years experience to get to 5th Dan, working on the following basis (gleaned from itf-information.com): White to black = 3 years Black 1 to 2 = 2 years 2 to 3 = 3 years 3 to 4 = 4 years 4 to 5 = 5 years 3+2+3+4+5 = 17 I think ITF has Black 4 as Instructor. That is where you get the funky uniform with the extra black stripes on the arms of your dobok :-) --- Rick Clark wrote: > > From: Neil Burton [mailto:neil_burton37@yahoo.com] > > ITF Master is 7-8th and GM is 9th > > > >> --- Ray Terry wrote: > > > That will depend on the style and the > organization. > > > I believe in USTU TKD > > > 4th is considered master rank. In many other > styles > > > and organizations a > > > master rank is higher than 4th. > > > > > > Other comments? > > I have always felt that a 5th dan was the first rank > that a person is > considered as an instructor. 1st and 2nd dan are > student ranks, 3rd and 4th > are competitors ranks and 5th dan is the first of > the teaching ranks. To me > a master instructor is someone who is currently > teaching teachers. So from > this perspective you would have to be an instructor > who is teaching at least > one 5th dan. > > Rick Clark > www.ao-denkou-kai.org > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:35:02 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 4th Dan Titles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "When you get your 4th Dan, does that include the title of "Master" or is that title granted only if you have that rank and are teaching classes i.e. Master Instructor.?" MC Reply, In Tang Soo Do the time in rank is 9 (but almost alway at least 10) years after Cho Dan to make 4th Dan and the title is Master for 4th through 7th Dan with Grandmaster for 8th and 9th. In WTF TKD the time in rank after Cho Dan to 5th Dan is 10 years (and can be reduced per written special conditions like national champion, etc.). Many like me consider the titles at 4th TSD and 5th TKD appropriate, but I still refer to TKD 5th Dans as my seniors, even if the time in rank is equal. Just before I left, WTSDA went through a long research about this issue and decided to award 4 stripes 4th Dan rank to non-studio owners (and the 1st 16y/o 3rd dans). The Associations youth members voted strongly not to have jr. blackbelt status and more time in rank for youth as needed. In theory there are not two cirricula to cho dan. People who run studios (and a few other minimum criteria...support the organization events, etc.) and pass the same physical exam are awarded the rank of 4th Dan Master. Most other TSD orgs reserve 4th Dan for ages 21+ and do not have a non master 4th Dan. Most of my TKD buddies and my GM (West) refer to all 4th Dans as Master Instructor and 5th Dans as Master. As posted previously in ITF TKD only 7th Dan+ are refered to as master (VII Dan for them I believe). I'm betting there are a lot of posts if you search on that question in the archives. My students, parents and my instructor (Master Mac) call me Master Richards, but my GM refers to me (and all 4th Dans in the federation) as Master Instructor. FWIW, I prefer 4th-6th as Master Instructor, and 7th-9th as Master, and leave out the American "Grand" prefix. YIJD, MC --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest