Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:07:04 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #513 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Dan Rankings? (Art VanVranken) 2. RE: Master Rank (Thomas Gordon) 3. RE: Master Rank (Thomas Gordon) 4. Congratulations to Ms. Hasten (Lois Knorr) 5. Sword cutting (DAVID WHEELER) 6. Re: Master Rank (ABurrese@aol.com) 7. Distinctions between Hwan Kee's Original Art and that of his contemporaries (Joel Weissler) 8. Re: Distinctions between Hwan Kee's Original Art and that of (Ray Terry) 9. Sites (Frank Clay) 10. RE: names and numbers (Chris Holmes) 11. Re: Names and Numbers (CStovall@nucorar.com) 12. Tang Soo Do (Master Mac) 13. Martial arts keeps you young (David Weller) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:42:41 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "Art VanVranken" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan Rankings? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We use the rankings of 1-3 as Dan Ranking. 4,5,6 as Master , and7,8,9 Grand master.I thought this was WTF Rankings. I could be wrong. [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of IMSTP.gif] [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type Image/jpeg which had a name of BackGrnd.jpg] --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Master Rank Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:54:37 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From what I can tell, master level starts as low as fourth and as high as seventh. In Kukkiwon, I understand master level starts at fourth degree. I have repeatedly heard that seventh to tenth degree is considered grandmaster (as on GM Sell's sight with the wife being a grandmaster at seventh degree). However, last weekend, I spoke to Grand Master Han (8th degree ranking from Kukkiwon) and he said eight degree was grandmaster level. Go ponder. In ITF, 4th-6th is considered instructor, 7th and 8th is considered master and 9th is grandmaster. In ATA, according to my 2002 testing application: Requirements for 6th Degrees to obtain the title of Master Personal invitation letters will be sent to eligible individuals - see the Master's Application for additional requirements. ____ Must be a club or school owner ____ Must have attained the minimum of a Blue Leadership collar (2003 mn. = Silver, 2004 mn. = Gold) Test 1200 students per year, this includes your complete genealogy - junior's juniors and so on. Silver collar is 3000 students testing per year. Gold collar is 6000 students testing per year. I don't think anyone really knows what the "other requirements" are in ATA other than you'll find out when you find out. For what it's worth. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Master Rank Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 22:54:37 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a fairly extensive library of older martial art books going back to 1899. The first place I can find any mention of master is in the first edition of Black Belt magazine (1961) on page 18 speaking of "William K.S. Chow, a Karate Master in Honolulu." Later, on page 42, there's an article starting off, "Aikido, which was founded in Japan by Master Morihei Uyeshiba, was not introduced to the outside world until 1953 when Master Koichi Tohei, the 32 years old.." In the 1974 edition of Hapkido by Grandmaster Bong Soo Han. The acknowledgement states, "....One such man, Bong Soo Han, Hapkido master.." Later he states, "...Again, many thanks to Bong Soo Han, Hapkido karate master,." Upper case and lower case is as written for both examples. Not sure what ranks any of these men were with the master designation. For what it's worth. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 07:10:08 -0500 (EST) From: Lois Knorr To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Congratulations to Ms. Hasten Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net “I want to congratulate fellow digest member Lawren Hasten on her promotion by Master Hodder to 2nd Dan in TKD this weekend. You did a great job Lawren! It was a privilege being your uki. - Joan Gittleman” Ms. Hasten, A belated congratulations from Canada, eh! (I’ve been out of e-mail reach in Ghana and am just now catching up.) Lois --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "DAVID WHEELER" To: Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 05:18:34 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sword cutting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What experiences has anyone out there had with sword cutting training? David Wheeler KSW --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 10:26:10 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>I'm sorry - had a senior moment. In Jang Mu Hapkido, >>Master rank is 6th >>degree, not 5th. >> >> >>~Sharon That's because Sharon just had a birthday and is getting older..... :-) Happy B-Day Sharon! Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 08:38:06 -0800 (PST) From: Joel Weissler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Distinctions between Hwan Kee's Original Art and that of his contemporaries Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My original instructor, Moon Ku Baek, was one of Hwan Kee's first students. GM Baek would have been one of Hwan Kee's first ten black belts, but his promotion was delayed by GM Baeks family who did not want him to be a fighter. So his number was slightly higher. During the last few years of his life we discussed the differences from Japanese Karate as then taught which Hwan Kee introduced to the original students. There were definite differences. One prominent difference was leg chambering style. Almost all kicks started with the same chambering so that the start of the kick did not telegraph what type of kick was coming. Second was the addition of circular kicks at a time when the Japanese kicks were primarily linear. Third were slight variations in the forms. Those forms have further changed in modern TSD/SBD. Listening to the Moon Ku Baek's comments regarding the way kicks should be executed always reminded me of the distinctions which made Hwan Kee's art a separate art. The most prominent comments were about knee chambering, and the amount of turn in the side kick. There were also significant differences in weapons taught and style. The weapons taught and the variations in weapons techniques along with modification of Japanese techniques and incorporation of effectively indigenous Chinese techniques clearly echoed the significant Japan-a-phobia and Korean nationalism of the time. Yours in training, Joel S. Weissler --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Distinctions between Hwan Kee's Original Art and that of To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 08:52:51 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > differences from Japanese Karate as then taught which > Hwan Kee introduced to the original students. There > were definite differences. One prominent difference > was leg chambering style. Almost all kicks started > with the same chambering so that the start of the kick > did not telegraph what type of kick was coming. Is that the chamber strategy used in Soo Bahk Do? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:51:36 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sites Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JC, At no time did I refer to Dan Nolan's site. I gave you the information I meant. Thanks, Frank --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:52:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: names and numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I for one am very glad that we don't have a common source. We could have a socialist system and look to the government to tell us who to listen to and what to do but the freedom of choice is one of the things that makes this nation great. Dr. Kimm is constantly researching and training.... experimenting with ideas he picks up from his research. I can't help but wonder if this would be more difficult to do with a single governing body. I do understand that for the purpose of communication and discussion a single body or source of information would be benefitial but at what cost to the innovators and researchers? Chris Holmes --__--__-- Message: 11 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 14:55:22 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Names and Numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Again, I don't think people are opposed to a common language because it represents some sort of infringement on their local authority or leadership. People are just talking the way they've always talked in their respective dojangs, and there happens to be a large diversity in the language and terminology because of the way the Hapkido arts spread. There was no clear linear succession in terms of leadership and authority (compare this to Judo). The first generation students quickly spread out and started doing their own thing...sometimes under a completely different name (compare this to Judo). Another thing to consider is that the Hapkido arts have not been as intensively covered in the publishing industry compared to Judo. There's probably been thousands of books published on Judo, and I'd wager that 99% of them refer back to the Kodokan terminology. That helped tremendously in terms of stamping a common language in peoples' minds. Again, I see a myriad of systemic issues that have driven things to their current state of affairs. You could get there, but you have to realize that something like Judo was built on a totally different infrastructure. Compare highly centralized corporate models to those that favor decentralization. One of the first things you'll notice in the decentralized models is that individual divisions typically have independently developed information systems. This means different platforms, different software, different data history and requirements, etc. In other words, the biggest differences usually show up in the way they manage and process symbols/language/information. In the end, they're all doing the same thing, but the WAY they're doing it is drastically different. I hope the irony of the example is not lost on you. Judo was centralized...their semantic circuit (borrowing from Leary's model here) was highly controlled and standardized. Hapkido developed via a decentralized model...individual languages and symbols developed independently at the local level. Yes, you can create a common language. Just keep in mind that it's not necessarily the PEOPLE that won't accept it. The problem is in trying to retrofit the language back over a chaotic system. It's not the people dude...it's the system. To be honest, I see a lot of similarities in the spread of Hapkido and the spread of the Filipino martial arts. Not a lot of emphasis on exact terminology, use of numbering systems for simplicity and convenience, the arts spread without the oversight of stringent organizational guidance. Lots of similarities systemically and culturally. FWIW, I've seen a hell of a lot of technical discussion carry on between Escrima/Arnis/Kali people...all without a common language. They just muddle though it. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:27:28 -0600 From: Master Mac To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Cox, << Maybe what I am trying to say is that the Name Tang Soo Do is most often referred to as being associated with Hwang Kee and the Moo Duk Kwan. I agree he did not create the name.>> I agree with you here. Since the other Kwans changed their 'art' name to Tae Kwon Do, the only one still using the term Tang Soo Do was GM Hwang Kee. So yes, just saying TSD referred to Hwang Kee's art. I believe that's how misinformation got spread that he was the founder of TSD, and not being specific TSD MDK. <> Do you know that Jin Mon(Mun) Hwang = Hyun Chul Hwang? Same person. <> Absolutly - that sounds much better and I believe much more accurate. Mac --__--__-- Message: 13 From: David Weller Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:35:10 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial arts keeps you young Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is from the Associated Press wire. I thought it spoke volumes about the benefits of staying active. (dave) LINCOLN, Neb. - Paul Owen turned 90 this week, and he's still getting his kicks from judo. "I don't know what keeps me young," Owen said. Maybe it's the kids he teaches at John Roseberry's Sho-Rei-Shobu-Kan Martial Arts Center in Lincoln. Owen, a fourth-degree black belt, easily keeps up with his exuberant students between ages 4 and 12. He instructs them on throws, holds, kicks and other basic movements. Owen picked up the sport at age 40, taught for almost 40 years and then went on hiatus because he couldn't compete as he had in the past. "I guess I thought I was too old," he said. So for a decade, Owen stayed away from the downtown dojo where he taught hundreds of judo novices. He decided to resume teaching the sport he loved two years ago. Two weeks ago, Owen received a plaque to commemorate his 50 years of judo. Lincoln police Capt. David Beggs, Owen's student 30 years ago, said Owen does a great job working with the young students. Owen picked up judo after being invited to a class at the University of Nebraska in the 1950s. He became friends with John Roseberry who eventually started his own dojo. "I was a student and a teacher," Owen said. Roseberry said Owen has always had a knack for judo. He'd hold his own at the few tournaments he attended, even though he was in his 50s. Outside the dojo, Owen exercises three times a week. He runs on a treadmill, rides a bike and lifts weights to keep his muscles toned. "The guy is phenomenal," Beggs said. "I hope I'm still alive at the age he is." --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest