Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 09:07:12 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #523 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. thoughts about this and that (J R Hilland) 2. Esteemed Membership (George Peters) 3. Soo bahk do/moo duk kwan/tang soo do (Tkdsid@aol.com) 4. Re: Re: Foot Pain (Jye nigma) 5. Plantar/ankle/arch Pain (Wilson, Byron) 6. Re: Korea Ki Do Association Hoshinsool (ABurrese@aol.com) 7. To Mister Sims on location. (Eric Walker) 8. Re: Soo bahk do/moo duk kwan/tang soo do (Ray Terry) 9. Knee Forward Chamber (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 10. Master Richard Chun (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:34:53 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] thoughts about this and that Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wanted to weigh in some thoughts on the unification of terminology. I recently spoke with my brother’s aikido teacher of the past 1-½ decades who has been teaching the art since the beginning of time. In addition, I spoke with one of my students who is also judo player at a local judo dojo. In aikido, they are unified because they are isolationists. One governing body that every organization and instructor can trace their lineage too. Because the art is actually a family art, as the Ueshiba family has technically been in charge of the art since its inception. The Ueshiba family is revered in most aikido circles. Even breakaway organizations adhere to their method of not only terminology, but also technique. Although the subtle differences between aikido dojo are very noticeable, I am certain that they are not to the general public. In addition to talking the same language, generally practicing the same technique, their kikogi (dobok) is the same. So, the Hombu dojo developed its own language, as did judo’s kudokan who also has had the same governing body forever. I will admit however than when I had an opportunity to cross train in aikijujutsu in the 80’s, their terminology was nothing like the aikido language, so there is not really a universal term for a wrist in-turn (nikkyo). Hapkido splintered in all directions when Choi Young Sul died in the 80’s. The splinter groups varied drastically. Instead of unifying, the first generation of students went different directions. Ego? Lack of direction? Who knows. Choi Young Sul was not an educated man. While there are many characteristics that make hapkido techniques unique, they are not practiced in many dojang due to the availability of fraudulent rank. Someone obtaining rank in hapkido, or any other art for that matter, by studying only books, or by any other method than continuous training in hapkido with a qualified teacher is ridiculous. But it is very common. These people do not know what hapkido really is and may never know. But they are teaching and spreading what they think is hapkido. Now lets examine some hapkido standards that are available. The first thing that comes to my mind is Dr. Kimm He Young and the Hapkido Bible as well as Hapkido volume 2. Master Ji also has his own system. At a basic level they involve numbered techniques. This is true for their students and the original students of Choi Young Sul. Master Myung wore a yudo dobok and used a number system back in the early days of the World Hapkido Association, before it changed to its current name and dobok. Master Ji has tried to change the dobok standard as well. I wear the yudo dobok because it was the first student hapkido dobok I ever wore. The first one used in hapkido for that matter. I also wear the well-known KHF style dobok and only allow my yudanja to do the same. Hapkido has common dobok, the yudo dobok, the black dobok, the KHF dobok and the crisscrossed, aiki and kenjutsu influenced dobok. Yes there are a lot of them but they are easily identifiable when worn correctly and by the appropriate rank. Although some of the variations are a little disturbing. Most dojang only use on or two depending on rank. No real difference than adding a hakima to the judo uniform the aikidoka wear. Dr. Kimm, Master Ji, Master Myung and others of that time. All these major hapkido players have several things in common. A number system for the beginners, and if you got them all in the same room their wrist out turn throw (kotagieshi or chogupsul dasut) would look very similar. It breaks down as we have people teaching who actually never learned the art, and legitimate teachers handing out rank like candy to a child at Halloween. But nevertheless, there is an underlying theme. Common 'principles of motion' and 'theories of basic motion'. In our organization we have a standard classification, number system if you will, as that for some unknown reason, is very popular in hapkido. A chogupsul series of 10 techniques, literally beginner techniques. Very similar to Dr. Kimm’s basic techniques. So just as in aikido and judo, there are standards. But they are different because hapkido is neither isolated, nor a sport. After the chogupsul system I use a number system as general catalog of techniques akin to what aikido does and it is the way I was taught 30 years ago. Yusul is throwing technique number one, kwanjyelsul hanna is locking and pinning technique number one. The English translation I give are universal, four direction throw, etc. Aikido even uses a number system, ikkyo, nikkyo, sonkyo all are 1, 2, 3. Although I sell our chogupsul tapes of Master West on my website, I have had people obtain them from many hapkido organizations and even from those only interested in mudo. They are a recognized standard to everyone who attends the biggest hapkido get together on the planet by the time they leave the buffet table. They are never directed; Master West believes that if it is not broke it does not need to be fixed. So no one is forced to learn them. But everyone does, as it is a universal language. My concern now is, how do we educate those in hapkido that do not really have a clue what hapkido is, like the guy learning from books. Please! Well we can’t. I get email often about someone who attended dan ranking through a book or seminar. My only advice is to find a qualified hapkido teacher and start over as a white belt. If they hold rank in another art, lets say taekwondo, which has been very common in the past decade – then I ask them if they would accept someone’s rank in taekwondo from someone who never actually attended a taekwondo class. But how do we stop this kind of activity? That is a hit and miss idea as often they do not want to give up their unearned rank. They are indeed proud of it. Although I do not have a clue as to why. What about principles of motion and theories of basic motion? What do you say to a hapkido yudanja who does not even know what a extended ki finger is? It is after all a white belt concept. Yet, what can be done about it? Most people do not bother with such, I certainly don’t. I will go out on a limb here as a majority of hapkidoin on the DD have been to Jackson and know the chogupsul. That is one idea of how we communicate technique, the other is to use the Japanese name, as most serious hapkidoin know them from osmosis. That is what happens when you stay in mudo so long. These are ideas for the DD. But what is to say about them. Discussing techniques is so much harder than showing it. There are only my thoughts concerning this quest for the common good. But when most of us stated hapkido, we did not have computers or the Internet. We had only the dojang and continuous repetitive training while having the principles of motion beat into our tiny little brains. Of course we communicated in person. Tuition was only $15 a month when I started. So some of the old ways are good. Jere R. Hilland - hapkido student. www.rrhapkido.com, www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 03:36:03 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Esteemed Membership Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sirs/Maams: I wish to thank each of you for your helpful answers to questions regarding therapy. Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:22:41 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Soo bahk do/moo duk kwan/tang soo do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If Tang Soo Do is the name of the art and Moo duk Kwan the name of the style; what were other styles names of tang soo do. eg: there are chung do kwan, ji do kwan, kang duk won forms of tae kwondo...what are the other forms of tang soo do??? Where does soo bahk do fit in??? Sincerely, Sid Rubinfeld --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 04:58:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Foot Pain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On the topic of foot pain...I was wondering if anyone else experiences this: At certain times on the bottom side of my foot, I get this sharp strain/pain. On my right foot, if I do something like jump rope where I have to land on my toes, that is typically when I feel that pain. It feels like something (going the length of my foot) is being pulled. The pain occurs right under my foot in the center of my foot. I also get it when I walk at times. It's hard to describe, but if you trace your foot on some paper and then draw lines going from the toes to the heel, the pain feels like one of those 'lines' is being strained. Anyone familiar with this? Jye --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 08:32:36 -0500 From: "Wilson, Byron" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Plantar/ankle/arch Pain Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net George P: The last issue of Sports Injury Journal (published in England by Electricword [I think]), dealt with this type of pain and offered several strengthening/conditioning exercises and therapies for precisely this. The Journal is directed at multiple sports but usually uses football (soccer), rugby and running as common types in example. Let me know if you can't reach it on the net and I will forward a copy to you off-line. Byron C. Wilson Director, Facilities Management Division Ohio Judicial Center 65 South Front Street Columbus, Ohio 43215 (614) 387-9300 wilsonb@liberty.sconet.state.oh.us --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 10:38:18 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Korea Ki Do Association Hoshinsool Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Also, what sort of introductory Hapkido books (in English) >>can list members >>recommend? Mike, When I was living and training in Korea I also looked for some English Hapkido books, and did find a couple in English/Korean at the Kyobo bookstore. There were also a few just in Korean. The book I bought there was one of Kwang-sik Myung's. The thing is, while the book had many techniques I recognized, it was not the same curriculum as I was learning. My school was under the KHF. I have purchased a number of Hapkido books since then in English, and Dr. Kim's Hapkido Bible II is one of the most complete and best, but it also is different from the curriculum I learned and now teach, though you find the same or similar techniques in the book. One of the best things you can do is start your own notebook. Don't just learn techniques, but learn the mechanics, movements and principles that the technique is based on and write these down and create your own notebook to assist your learning, remembering and future teaching. Some of the best advice I could give is, while you are there in Korea with an instructor, learn from him, and take lots of notes. Don't worry too much about outside sources till later. I can't wait for my next visit, and sometimes I really miss living there. We didn't get to go this year because of the birth of our daughter, but we plan to go over next year. Probably in Sept. so we can spend Chusuk with Yi-saeng's family. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Eric Walker" To: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:05:16 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] To Mister Sims on location. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Sims, We share a dojang space with a WTF TKD school. They let us use their dojang on off nights with the agreement that we train their students if they wish to train in hapkido. Both of the classes are run much like clubs, we just lucked into a cheap rent situation for an empty store front in a plaza with a Thai market in it. I work in my family's business (we own hardware stores) and so I have no delusions about what it takes to run a business. As it is I put in six day weeks and long hours daily. I have to admit I would like to have a dojang that I could run like a business some day; however that day is a long way off. Perhaps as far off as my retirement even. I do understand that if I were near a large city, I might be able to make a modest living as an instructor/owner, but I'm not willing to take on large numbers of young children and babies to pay the bills. As the oldest of seven kids, I've had enough damn babysitting over the years. I have a twelve year old white belt right now that is rather challenging, and he's pretty well behaved in class, his step-mom and older brother train with us too. But he slows down the rest of the class (Sesame Street attention span and all that) and I'm considering raising the minimum age to 14. In the position that I'm in at the moment I don't have the class hours to split classes between beginners and advanced. Nor do I really have the personal time to have 6-8 classes a week. So for now we just run the class in the manner of a club. All dues collected pay the bills and the leftover money (HA!) goes into sparring gear and training aids. I never charge above cost for uniforms and test fees go to the master to cover costs of belts and certs. I would have to say that the lure of being a business owner is great although I don't think you have the reason pegged down. We are a nation of entrepreneurs, we mostly believe in the American dream, getting a slice of the pie...etc. I think that many martial artists would like to be able to do what they love and make a living for it. Personally I would like a six figure salary to go fishing every day! That would leave my nights free to train... There are certainly many list members and other MA's out there that use other's facilities. Please don't take this to be intended with disrespect, but perhaps you're just overlooking those people. Maybe they are not as visible to you because they are in out-of-the-way places. Maybe you're letting yourself worry over things that should be a non-issue? Is this is the place where the master whacks you over the head with the rattan staff and whispers "Let it go..." softly in your ear. Please don't take my meaning the wrong way, as I have a lot of respect for your candor and contributions to this web, this place is usually more lively when you're around, but I think you are a little off base on this issue. Respectfully, Eric --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Soo bahk do/moo duk kwan/tang soo do To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:39:36 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > If Tang Soo Do is the name of the art and Moo duk Kwan the name of the style; > what were other styles names of tang soo do. eg: there are chung do kwan, ji > do kwan, kang duk won forms of tae kwondo...what are the other forms of tang > soo do??? Where does soo bahk do fit in??? Soo Bahk Do is just another name for Tang Soo Do, or more specifically Hwang Kee's copyrighted version of Tang Soo Do / Korean Karate. In reality MDK is the name of the school / lineage, not the name of the style. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:34:27 -0600 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Knee Forward Chamber Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, I first learned knee forward chamber in 1974 in my Tae Kwon Do class. My instructor started everyone with the side chamber, then taught the front chamber as an alternative later. Danny Dunn --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:53:21 -0600 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Richard Chun Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid, I don't know why we don't hear more about GM Chun. He authored 2 excellent books on Tae Kwon Do, not the Moo Duk Kwan paperbacks. I talked with him once in the mid 1980's when I was looking to join an organization. Unfortunately my original letter got misfiled and it was sometime later when he contacted me. I remember he was very warm and personable, and has quite a resume of accomplishments. I think he indicated he was planning a third volume in his Tae Kwon Do series on the "traditional" forms. I believe that was his term, but unfortunately, I don't think it has been published yet. Hopefully he will get it done. Danny Dunn <<<<>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest