Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 08:33:58 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #526 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. names and numbers of hapkido techniques (Don Kirsch) 2. Names and numbers (J R Hilland) 3. Ray Terry-Soo Bahk Do/Tang Soo Do (George Peters) 4. Terminology (Rudy Timmerman) 5. Control (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 6. Contact (Rudy Timmerman) 7. Re: Re: learning from books, DVD's etc.. (Jeremy Anderson) 8. RE: teaching control: pulling punches (Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)) 9. Re: Ray Terry-Soo Bahk Do/Tang Soo Do (Ray Terry) 10. Re: Learning from books... (Bert Edens) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Don Kirsch" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:49:57 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] names and numbers of hapkido techniques Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wanted to give a brief take on the numbering system used by Master West and his students. I can't speak directly for Master West but as a long time student and friend of his here is my view point. First it is not a system of numbered techniques. We teach ten basic chogubsul techniques which are numbered 1 through 10. That's it. The techniques are then taught from An Son Mok Sul and Oht Sul grabs. These ten basic techniques when practiced correctly with attention to motion, angles and center of gravity are a foundation from which more advanced HapKiDo techniques can be taught. To me it is fairly evident to anyone familiar with HapKiDo or other martial arts #1 is an arm bar, #2 is a hammer lock, #3 is an S-lock...ect. Its not what we call a technique its how and how many times we practice the technique. IMO Don Kirsch --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:48:21 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Names and numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> It works for me! Well, here is an idea for you, if most hapkido yudanja have a copy of the hapkido bible, why not use that as a standard. It is after all the most recommended book in the hapkido library. Although I do prefer volume 2. For that matter, anyone that has been around hapkido a while has a copy of Master Myung's 1976 Korean Hapkido book laying around. But you made my point for me, everyone has a standard that is their tradition and your not going to change that, so to create a common terminology database, well, I just don't see it happening. I also just don't see many hapkido instructors wanting to teach their students new terms in addition to their tradition. <<>> That happens sometimes. I was independent for 9 years. I wasn't even looking for a new teacher or organization. But I found one and I am very happy with the results. But if these folks truly are looking, they should not have much problem finding a affiliation that is right for them. There are plenty of folks that are the 'real deal' out there. FWIW - I go to Jackson to practice hapkido not so much to discuss it. I even spent my lunch break holding a class the last time I was there, just as Master Timmerman does. Sorry about not weighing in on this discussion earlier, but reading my email has not been a priority lately. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 01:26:10 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ray Terry-Soo Bahk Do/Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, Looking at your comment on SBD/TSD being the same thing made me think of something we were taught at the beginning of training,ie;Tang Soo Do is 60% Soo bahk Do and 40% Kung Fu.I know that the disscussion has occured on the content of TSD, at least the types of Kung Fu involved in the recent past here on the DD. The belief that TSD and SBD are the same, I believe, is only since the advent of the USSBDMDK by the late KJN Hwang Kee. Anyway, I was just wondering what the "original SBD" was that TSD was formed from. Was it the whole art of SBD+40%Kung Fu=TSD? Or perhaps only a given part of SBD+40%Kung Fu=TSD? When speaking about SBD, I always try to seperate the SBD "back then" and the SBD "now". Perhaps this is not correct? Ah, well, my mind is a confusing place even for me with all these thoughts whirling around. Anyway, if you could answer this for me, perhaps the world would not be such a confusing and mystifying place. Perhaps this is a "chicken and egg" question? Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 10:08:23 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Terminology Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > But of course, you don't want to learn my terminology, > and Michael (Rowe) wants to use ICHF. Alain and Hal, > Rudy and Jeff, Joo Bang Lee and Ji Han Jae all think > their taxonomy is right on the money and so does every > other mother's son who gets out on the mat. Hi Bruce: To me, the only reason I continue to teach the same names and numbers for the techniques I teach is familiarity. At my age, I don't care to learn anything else in that area, because what we have works for us. I am certainly NOT saying mine is right wrong or otherwise... it is just easier for me to continue to do what I have been doing since I began training in Hap Ki Do. When I look at some of the English terms you and others use, I haven't a clue as to what kick or strike you mean. For example, I have NO idea what you mean by a slap kick or a tornado kick, even though it is in the language I speak every day. Like you said, there are others out there who do need it, and I for one think it is great that you are willing to work with these folks. Anything that can help others is a good thing neh? Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:18:08 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Control Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir; In my earlier days of training I can remember my instructor emphasizing control in sparing. We would sometimes practice kicking full power at a partner back and forth for two hours. He would say white belts should be kicking and punching within 10 inches of the target, Orange belts 6 inches, green belts 3 inches, red belts 1 inch, and Dans should be able to touch the Do-Bak. By the time we all reached dan level it just seemed natural to kick full power to the target and stop just short. It made for some dangerous looking sparing but we had few injuries. I believe it helped me become a better martial artist, and I believe learning control is important,, however there are a couple of cons to this. The Cons--- As you practice this way, you have to first make sure you are applying scientific mechanics to the techniques or you will damage joints. For example. Front trusting kick the energy goes to the ball of the foot weather you hit the target or not. Front snapping kick will go to the target if you hit it, but if you kick in the air or miss the energy will return to the knee. Research this. Con-- Make sure students get the opportunity to have full impact on a target (The Bob Targets from century are nice) You will find that if you practice inside to outside kick or Ax Kick what ever you want to call it. That if you practice clearing the head of your partner in sparing and in drills, that when given a target to hit you will sometimes miss. Your body will do what is trained to do. Students will have to realize through control, when to use the skill of controlled sparing and when to use the realism of full contact. Your training will create habits, In this concept your habit must be to use control or to use full contact when appropriate, not just control, and not just contact. Both--individually are limiting. JC --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 10:11:41 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Contact Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Melinda writes: > They can't pull them in time right before contact? Any > interesting suggestions out there? > _______________________ > have them punch at a concrete wall :). they'll learn to pull it or cry > trying. > > take care, > melinda Hi Melinda: You crack me up, and I thought I was the only one who still used that barbaric (but very effective) training tool lol. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 07:45:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: learning from books, DVD's etc.. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net --- Bruce Sims wrote: > Dear John et al: > > Of Course people can learn from books!! We have a > multi-billion dollar industry called education that > depends to a great degree on learning from books. What > most people cannot do is perfect what it is that they > are learning. For this we have additional "coaching" > provided by teachers. > > Look-- lets quit kidding ourselves. Sure it would be > best if we had a single long-time teacher who didn't > BS us, take the money and run, misrepresent himself or > what he does or any of a host of other things that a > lot of teachers do. I don't pretend that I have been > anything but damn lucky to have connected with the > folks that I have. But not everyone is that lucky. Out > in the netherlands where one crappy school is the only > one for miles around its not easy to follow a martial > path. And don't pretend like we don't all know the > REAL reason Martial Art books sell. As much as we > carry on about not learning from books, every person > reading this post has gone through books and magazines > looking for some bit they don't know. The same can be > said for DVD-s and video tapes. If you are a teacher > you take that bit and represent it in class as though > you knew it all along--- but only after you did it a > few times to the air in your office with the door > closed. FWIW. Actually, I've not gone through books, magazines or videotapes looking from some bit I didn't know. And as a teacher, I have not taken anything from a book, magazine, or videotape and taught it in class as something I've known all along. I only go to books or videotapes as reminders of what I've already learned. So, what is the REAL reason Martial Arts books sell? Jeremy Anderson. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] teaching control: pulling punches Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:40:38 -0500 From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can't remember if the original post mentioned what rank these students who had a lack of control were, but that usually goes away as they advance in rank. Control in our class is taught in the following manner. No sparring gear is worn in our classes. White belt No free sparring only 3 step sparring. Yellow Belt A yellow belt student in free sparring is expected to kicks and punches with full extension no closer than 8" from contact with no spinning techniques or ridge hands. Green Belt A green belt is expected to bring kicks and punches with full extension in closer to 6" from contact with and increased number of combinations. Some spinning kicks can be attempted but only against black belts. Purple Belt A purple belt is expected to bring kicks and punches in closer to 4" from contact with power, increase number of combinations. Brown Belt At brown belt the student is expected to kick and punch with 2" from contact just shy from full extension. (read as full power contact if fully extended). Black Belt & Above At black belt the student is expected to make contact with BODY targets without full extension but with power. This is done pretty safely. However; usually if someone gets "stuck" he or she usually "walked into it". NO CONTACT is allowed to the head or face for obvious reasons. As the above descriptions show the amount of control needed is increased at every rank level. If the student does not show the proper control for their level then they obviously need to work on that before being considered for rank promotion. There are always the occasional bump and bruise, usually from blocks. We use the heavy bag for full power full extension contact. We also break board to work on full kick extension and projecting power "through" or "beyond" the target. Anyway I am rambling. I hope this helps Thanks, Brian Woodard -----Original Message----- From: ChunjiDo@aol.com [mailto:ChunjiDo@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 10:43 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] teaching control: pulling punches They can't pull them in time right before contact? Any interesting suggestions out there? _______________________ have them punch at a concrete wall :). they'll learn to pull it or cry trying. take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy _www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply _www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ray Terry-Soo Bahk Do/Tang Soo Do To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 09:15:25 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Anyway, I was just wondering what the "original SBD" was that TSD was > formed from. Was it the whole art of SBD+40%Kung Fu=TSD? Or perhaps only a > given part of SBD+40%Kung Fu=TSD? When speaking about SBD, I always try to > seperate the SBD "back then" and the SBD "now". Perhaps this is not correct? > Ah, well, my mind is a confusing place even for me with all these thoughts > whirling around. Anyway, if you could answer this for me, perhaps the world > would not be such a confusing and mystifying place. Perhaps this is a > "chicken and egg" question? Soo Bahk Do is just a name that Hwang Kee coined after seeing a brief reference to the word/name Su Bak. We have no idea what the art of Su Bak was like, the art has been lost to history. My take on it is that Hwang Kee wanted to come up with a new name for Korean Karate just as Gen. Choi and others did when they coined the name Tae Kwon Do. Tae Kwon Do was picked as it was more original, more Korean, than Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do. Same for Soo Bahk Do. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 11:23:18 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Learning from books... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At 05:04 12/9/04, you wrote: >REAL reason Martial Art books sell. As much as we >carry on about not learning from books, every person >reading this post has gone through books and magazines >looking for some bit they don't know. The same can be >said for DVD-s and video tapes. If you are a teacher >you take that bit and represent it in class as though >you knew it all along--- but only after you did it a >few times to the air in your office with the door >closed. FWIW. >Best Wishes, >Bruce Greetings! First, I would definitely admit I'm one of the above... No doubt... Guilty as charged... But I think the difference is that most of us here will take that new technique we saw on a website, in a book, on a DVD, or wherever, and play with it, tweak it, and run through it many times with a live partner to be sure it's a viable technique. I can't count the ones I've looked at, messed with, and then once we've tried it in class have discovered that it reeks. :) But by the same token we've also found some real gems of variations, etc., out there... My gripe is the person who really believes that by learning only from a book, without the interpersonal "viability testing", prepares them for much of anything, much less a dan rank. Just some thoughts... **bows** - Bert Edens, II Dan TKD Springdale, Arkansas --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest