Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 03:03:47 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #527 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Knee chambers, revisited (ISA Headquarters) 2. Re: Names and Numbers...... (Bruce Sims) 3. Re: Names and Numbers..... (Bruce Sims) 4. Re: Learning from Books and Tapes.... (Bruce Sims) 5. Names and Numbers (Sharon Tkach) 6. Re: Knee chambers, revisited (Ray Terry) 7. Re: contact (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 8. RE: learning from books (Howard Spivey) 9. young dan(s)? (Michael Whalen) 10. Learning from books, etc. (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "ISA Headquarters" To: Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:25:27 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Knee chambers, revisited Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray and all, While practicing TKD and Shotokan in the 60's and 70's the only kick that we used the front chamber on was the front kick. The first person I saw using this chambering method for front, round, side and hook kicks, was Bill "Superfoot" Wallace. This was when he was the "champ" and in full swing on the tournament and full-contact circuit. After he made known his kicking style, then most if not all of the premier kickers started using his chambering method. Respectfully, George I. Petrotta ISA Director http://www.sungjado.org/ isahdq@sc.rr.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:26:45 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Names and Numbers...... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Don: "......HapKiDo techniques can be taught. To me it is fairly evident to anyone familiar with HapKiDo or other martial arts #1 is an arm bar, #2 is a hammer lock, #3 is an S-lock...ect. Its not what we call a technique its how and how many times we practice the technique......" Ok, and what about the people for whom it is not "fairly evident"? What about the people who only know a technique by the name that THEY use? What about the people who do not practice JR's approach? What about our compatriots who do not speak English well? What about people who practice related or similar arts such as Chin Na, TSD, JU-Jutsu and so forth? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:39:57 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Names and Numbers..... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jere: ".....It works for me! Well, here is an idea for you, if most hapkido yudanja have a copy of the hapkido bible, why not use that as a standard. It is after all the most recommended book in the hapkido library. Although I do prefer volume 2. For that matter, anyone that has been around hapkido a while has a copy of Master Myung's 1976 Korean Hapkido book laying around......" Actually, Jere, thats not a half-bad idea. And you are absolutely right, anyone who seems at all serious about practicing the Hapkido arts seems to come back to Kimms' book over and over. Furthermore, Dr. Kimm never seems to have any problems about making himself available for in-put. My only reservation to using him or Myung or Tedeschis' book in the past has been the trouble with making sure that we were not pressing a particular view of the Hapkido arts. if we could put that far enough to one side maybe Dr Kimms material would be a very good foundation. I'd love to know what other people would think of this. The next step would then be to assign a term for each of the concepts that we use. For instance is the matter of disrupting or compromising a persons' equilibrium called "taking his balance", or "breaking his balance" or "un-balancing" and what exactly does it mean to do this? Is it something that I make happen or some result I induce in my attacker? BTW: I wonder if anyone has had a chance to think about labels for the knee strikes? Likewise, I wonder if its appropriate to consider techniques of similar execution to be labeled under a family that shares similarities in execution or if each technique should continue to be regarded as separate and unique in its own right? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 11:48:39 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Learning from Books and Tapes.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bert: ".....I can't count the ones I've looked at, messed with,......" Yres, and I think THIS is where we cross the line. My best guess is that most people will agree that the issue is NOT learning from a book. The real issue is participating in the process that you neatly outlined in your post. Its not a bad thing to get ideas from books and tapes. After all why else would we have them. The difference, as you say, is taking the time to really examine what it is that is being done. Looked at from a little different angle I think it might be like the student who comes to me about a technique and is taught that technique. Later he comes for another and when I ask about the first technique I am told "oh, I know that one already." Here is a person who has confused being familiar with something with KNOWING it. I think books can get us familiar with a concept or technique but only studying and training bring it alive, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Sharon Tkach" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 11:52:43 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Names and Numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote, in part: >But of course, you don't want to learn my terminology, >and Michael (Rowe) wants to use ICHF. Alain and Hal, >Rudy and Jeff, Joo Bang Lee and Ji Han Jae all think >their taxonomy is right on the money and so does every >other mother's son who gets out on the mat. Nor have >you addressed the matter that even numbering systems >vary as in comparing KSW's to Kimm's to Ji's to >Myung's. But I do appreciate you letting me know why I >have not been able to have a technical discussion with >folks at the Internationale. Apparently this will be >possible just as soon as I and everyone else start >learning JR-s numbering system, yes? > >However, the actual reason I am taking time to write >this post at all is that I might wonder out loud if >you appreciate how EXCLUSIONARY your take is for the >average Hapkido practiioner. I have trained at Master West's school several times, both at regular class and at seminars. At each occasion, I was the only person present from my Hapkido association. Even though the techniques were often referred to by names or numbers I am unfamiliar with, just seeing them demonstrated was enough for me to immediately know which technique to do. I have also cross-trained in seminars of other arts, and had no trouble identifying and executing similar techniques from jujitsu, aikido, judo, or whatever, regardless of what they were called. You mentioned Alain and Rudy, among others. Alain was present at Jackson and some of the mixed-art seminars and had no problem with the techniques. Even though he trained in Korea and I trained in the U.S., in different associations, again, we had no confusion working together. At one Jackson seminar I partnered with Kevin Janisse, who is an instructor in GM Timmerman's organization. We did not share the same terminology, but that wasn't a hindrance to partnering. When did Master West (or anyone else) ask anyone outside his organization to learn his numbering system? I must have missed that. Was I supposed to feel excluded as an "average Hapkido practitioner" because I didn't share his or anyone else's terminology? I guess I missed that too. IMHO, where you ran into trouble was in trying to set up a standard of what constitutes an acceptable (legitimate, minimum, whatever) Hapkido curriculum, which is how this thread started. From other posts on this topic, it appears that most list members are happy with what they have and don't feel the need to conform to someone else's list, nor participate in a mandate of what others' curriculum must include to be "Hapkido." Therefore, to them, said list is unnecessary and not worth the trouble of working toward. Just because others do not share your goals does not make them "exclusionary." ~Sharon --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Knee chambers, revisited To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 12:36:44 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > While practicing TKD and Shotokan in the 60's and 70's the only kick that we > used the front chamber on was the front kick. The first person I saw using > this chambering method for front, round, side and hook kicks, was Bill > "Superfoot" Wallace. This was when he was the "champ" and in full swing on the > tournament and full-contact circuit. > After he made known his kicking style, then most if not all of the premier > kickers started using his chambering method. Bill Wallace was/is certainly a freak of nature. I loved to watch his fights. Fighters knew he was only going to kick with his left leg. Only kick from the left side stance. And only use three kicks (for the most part); side, heel hook and roundhouse. Yet he consistently knocked out his opponents. In his 1981 book he clearly describes his personal style of kicking. The chamber of the knee is the same for all three kicks, but it really isn't a front kick knee chamber. His knee is super high and his body is turned into a side stance. It looks like his kicks all start from more of a high side kick stance (to me anyway) than anything else. I have some of his tapes. On one of the tapes he shows the only right legged kick he ever tried in a fight. It didn't connect and it is the saddest looking kick you'll ever see... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 16:20:58 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: contact Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Melinda writes: > They can't pull them in time right before contact? Any > interesting suggestions out there? > _______________________ > have them punch at a concrete wall :). they'll learn to pull it or cry > trying. > > take care, > melinda Hi Melinda: You crack me up, and I thought I was the only one who still used that barbaric (but very effective) training tool lol. Sincerely, Rudy ___________________________ ___________________________ hee, hee.... i will say, also, to the fella who asked that question that the person who's learning control needs to show you where there punch is going to fall (in distance from the wall) and have you adjust them so that theyre _forced_ to pull it before they hit that wall. too many'll have the arm completely extended with fist touching the wall before they start to make it easy on themselves. also helps if theyre in gima seogi (horse stance)...let the fun begin. yep, gm rudy (does anyone else have this crazy desire to call him "uncle rudy", too??), i came from the school of jukdo (shinai) smackdowns and 1000 kick nights. (the other 1000 were homework...and if we could walk the next night, they knew we didnt do 'em ;)). i dont beat 'em with a jukdo, but i do carry one around during sword training and poke gently to remind to get back into gima seogi. did anyone else kick uphill in the snow both ways? ;) a jukdo smack to all, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy _www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply _www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:57:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: learning from books Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Look-- lets quit kidding ourselves. Sure it would be best if we had a single long-time teacher who didn't "...As much as we carry on about not learning from books, every person reading this post has gone through books and magazines looking for some bit they don't know. The same can be said for DVD-s and video tapes. If you are a teacher you take that bit and represent it in class as though you knew it all along--- but only after you did it a few times to the air in your office with the door closed. FWIW." can't really tell if this is supposed to be tongue-in-cheek or serious, but if it's serious, why would you not want your students to know that you're learning a technique from a book or dvd? surely there's no shame in that. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Michael Whalen" To: "dojang digest" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 17:01:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] young dan(s)? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John wrote: "..can properly demonstrate all required black belt skills or perform the proper skills at a black belt level, should be promoted or recognized as a black belt within a short period of time. IMHO there should be some recognition for the level of skills they have obtained and they should be promoted to the appropriate level within a short time." This young man, if I remember correctly, is 15 years old. If given this 4th Dan rank he would be a 4-5 years shy of Master? Should a 15 YO also receive this recognition? Something that others spend 15-20+ yrs. to achieve? If I were to "cram" ,for a double rank jump, for a solid year I could probably do the techs, weapons, etc. but would I really know them? NOPE. Besides, I'm a serious believer of mat time and no book, mag, or DVD is gonna teach me that. My 1/4 cent, michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 15:40:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Learning from books, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > It is my opinion that a person, who has learned it from books, DVD's, > etc. and can properly > demonstrate all required black belt skills or perform the proper skills at a > black > belt level, should be promoted or recognized as a black belt within a short > period of time. IMHO, what is described above is unlikely to occur. Someone that came in with nothing but tons of hours spent learning only from books and videos would likely take longer to reach 1st Dan than if he/she hadn't wasted all that time. You will probably develop poor form and a lot of very bad habits that will have to be unlearned before the real learning can begin. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest