Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 07:54:32 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #528 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. SBD/TSD (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 2. young dans (Tkdsid@aol.com) 3. Re: Names and numbers (Bruce Sims) 4. names & numbers (Don Kirsch) 5. Re: Learning from books (Bruce Sims) 6. Re: Young Dans (Bruce Sims) 7. Re: Names and Numbers..... (CStovall@nucorar.com) 8. Re: young dan(s)? (Craig Zeigler) 9. Dr. Kimm's Hapkido Bible I / II (Bert Edens) 10. Re: Terminology (ABurrese@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 22:42:06 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] SBD/TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir George: Soo Bahk Do is a name Hwang Kee created by adding "Do" to the original word Su Bak. As you are probably aware, Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim got the name from his translation of the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji. Some history of this book may help you. The book was authored by Master Lee Duk Moo in 1790. Master Lee Duk Moo was ordered to write the book by King Jung Jo during the Yi Dynasty. Master Lee Duk Moo was ordered to compile and record all known martial arts techniques into one book or manual. This included four sections--Spear--Sword--strategies--and empty hand combat (Kwon Bup Section) The author of the MYDBTJ list many references in the contents of the manual. The sources are Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim organized his translation of the Kwon Bup section into a Hyung format consisting of 17 Hyungs. The first 6 are known as the Yuk Ro Hyungs. Practiced by the US SBD MDK. As Ray said the art of Su Bak was lost in history but I believe this is the closest we have. From that Translation Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim introduced six new sets of Basics. The six new sets are known as the New Soo Bahk Do Basics. They come directly from the MYDBTJ. Prior to Hwang kee Kwan Jang Nim's death, the Moo Duk Kwan had begun a shift toward these techniques. We continued to teach many of the old concepts but seem to have moved more distant from the Japanese influences like Pyung Ahn Hyungs, Kong Sang Koon, etc. Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim himself said he was trying to connect with history when he created the name Soo Bahk Do, and like Ray said he probably picked it because it was more Korean than Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do. As for the percentages concept, I don't agree with putting percentages on art forms. Some say 60% Kicking 40% hands or 60% Korean 30 Northern Chinese 10% southern Chinese. The reality is that in defense or on any given night I can use 100% foot or 100% hands and never leave the boundaries of the art. It is a fact however that what is taught today in SBD MDK is not the same as is being taught in TSD organization. JC --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 07:26:01 -0500 From: Tkdsid@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] young dans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This bizarre phenomenon of kids under 15 holding 4th poom/dan is a natural consequence of the successful growth of martial arts. That success spread the arts far and wide, turned it into a large business and lowered the standards. It's not just knowing the techniques and forms its also a matter of wisdom, experience and saying NO when people ask for higher and higher dan rank. We now have 5 people that hold 10th dan in tkd. The highest I remember in MDK was 8th and there was only the great Hwang Kee. Turning the clock back to the good ole days may be impossible. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 05:08:13 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Names and numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Sharon: ".....IMHO, where you ran into trouble was in trying to set up a standard of what constitutes an acceptable (legitimate, minimum, whatever) Hapkido curriculum, which is how this thread started. From other posts on this topic, it appears that most list members are happy with what they have and don't feel the need to conform to someone else's list, nor participate in a mandate of what others' curriculum must include to be "Hapkido." Therefore, to them, said list is unnecessary and not worth the trouble of working toward. Just because others do not share your goals does not make them "exclusionary."......." I'm sorry, but to put it plainly I don't think you are listening. OF COURSE, when we get out on the mat, its not a problem. When we are out on the mat we can SHOW each other what we are talking about. NOW---- do exactly the same thing you have written in your post with, say, Kevin, but do it here on the DD using only words and no pictures. Put your technical interactions at Jackson in a magazine article so that all of the practitioners of the Hapkido arts, regardless of affiliation can understand and appreciate and comment on the comment---- but don't use any pictures. Sit in a bar or a restaurant and converse about technique and constructs of the Hapkido arts but don't touch the other person and don't "air-demo" the biomechanics. Discuss the roll of "re-direction", "unfocusing" or "untiming" in the successful execution of a technique with someone who uses different terms for these concepts---- and DON'T take time to define the terms first. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Don Kirsch" To: "the_dojang" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 07:08:37 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] names & numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce: My point was not that there is any thing wrong with having a common nomenclature of HapKiDo techniques. I was only pointing out that Master West's style of teaching HapKiDo is not really a numbered system. He only numbers 10 techniques and uses then as a base from which to develop good fundamentals and then advanced techniques. I have also trained in Han Mu Do with Dr. Kimm. That is a numbered system. Every set of techniques has a number and every technique in the set has a number. My other point was, again IMO, we can call an arm bar "monkey running thru jungle" and if I don't practice it correctly and many times correctly its not going to do me any good. Your friend, Don Kirsch --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 05:20:33 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Learning from books Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Howard: ".....if it's serious, why would you not want your students to know that you're learning a technique from a book or dvd? surely there's no shame in that......" You're right, there IS no shame in that and it happens ALL THE TIME. But the fact is, Howard, that one of the huge unspoken characteristics of the Hapkido community is that people in leadership have elevated themselves to such positions in their own minds that they become prisoners of their own thinking. I can guarentee you that some of the reasons that people DON'T want a common Hapkido language, for instance, include laziness (they don't want to have to learn a new taxonomy), shame (it might reveal how limited or shallow their understanding is) and pride (to not be the penultimate source of wisdom and knowledge to their students). As I say, lets not kid ourselves. Regardless of all the talk about character-development the majority of life-time practitioners are no more better developed emotionally than anyone else. They have their respective fiefs that they guard feverishly. These fiefs are bounded by the illusions they perpetuate to themselves and their students about who and what they are. THE LEADERSHIP knows its crap, and the students may have their own suspicions, but those teachers with the 5th, 6th, and 7th dan ranks do NOT want to get caught "with their hands in the cookie jar" learning what they should already know from a video tape. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 05:32:57 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Young Dans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear John: "....."..can properly demonstrate all required black belt skills or perform the proper skills at a black belt level, should be promoted or recognized as a black belt within a short period of time. IMHO there should be some recognition for the level of skills they have obtained and they should be promoted to the appropriate level within a short time....." Until such time as we can get on the same page regarding what we do and how we do it this issue will keep coming back. This is because people who wade-in on this subject are coming from many different value systems. 1.) Are you talking about an activity that is a martial ART or a martial SPORT? Big difference! 2.) Are you talking about people who are learning a martial art with a pro-active or passive attitude towards the attacker? 3.) Are you talking about only demonstrating the ability to reproduce a physical activity or also having the sound judgement to know when to use it and to understand ones' own limitations? 4.) Are you talking about a person who is truely ready or someone who is pushed ahead for the testing revenues or is nagging his teacher because he, the student, believes he is ready? I don't teach kids because, frankly, they can't cash the checks their little egos (and that of their parents) write. If they could we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. The fact that we ARE discussing this lends me to believe that at some level people KNOW what the true answer is---- but want someone to give them a sustaining rationale for some OTHER answer. Reason? There is money in them tests. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 08:10:35 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Names and Numbers..... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> So...let me get this straight. You embrace diversity in terms of "what is Hapkido", but you feel the need to drive everyone toward a common terminology. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 09:43:20 -0500 From: Craig Zeigler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] young dan(s)? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael Whalen wrote: >John wrote: >"..can properly demonstrate all required black belt skills or perform >the proper skills at a black belt level, should be promoted or >recognized as a black belt within a short period of time. IMHO >there should be some recognition for the level of >skills they have obtained and they should be promoted to the appropriate >level within a short time." > > >This young man, if I remember correctly, is 15 years old. If given this >4th Dan rank he would be a 4-5 years shy of Master? Should a 15 YO also >receive this recognition? Something that others spend 15-20+ yrs. to >achieve? If I were to "cram" ,for a double rank jump, for a solid year I >could probably do the techs, weapons, etc. but would I really know them? >NOPE. Besides, I'm a serious believer of mat time and no book, mag, or >DVD is gonna teach me that. >My 1/4 cent, >michael whalen KSWnut >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > Michael, You're absolutely correct. Although I'm a fairly young person myself (23), I think there is a bit of mental preparedness that has to go with any rank. I don't feel a person of 15 years has that mental development. Anything is possible of course, but whoever is considering promoting this young person needs to seriously evaluate their personality, and level of maturity. Please understand that I am not insulting this young person, but I have seen younger people promoted even to first dan, and simply don't have the responsibility or the maturity to handle this responsibility. It is commendable that this young person has worked so hard to achieve what they have, but to have a 4th dan of that age could be very dangerous for people around him in a moment of poor judgment. Also, just my $0.02, Craig Zeigler --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:16:01 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] Dr. Kimm's Hapkido Bible I / II Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At 05:03 12/10/04, you wrote: >Actually, Jere, thats not a half-bad idea. And you are >absolutely right, anyone who seems at all serious >about practicing the Hapkido arts seems to come back >to Kimms' book over and over. Furthermore, Dr. Kimm >never seems to have any problems about making himself >available for in-put. My only reservation to using him Greetings, all... Speaking of, does anyone know any decent online places where these books can be ordered? I couldn't find them on www.hanmudo.com, just some of the of DVDs... Or can they be ordered through them, and they just aren't listed on the site? Help? Thanks in advance! **bows** - Bert Edens Springdale, Arkansas --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 11:28:09 -0500 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Terminology Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > But of course, you don't want to learn my terminology, > and Michael (Rowe) wants to use ICHF. Alain and Hal, > Rudy and Jeff, Joo Bang Lee and Ji Han Jae all think > their taxonomy is right on the money and so does every > other mother's son who gets out on the mat. Bruce, I do not think my taxonomy is right on the money, I teach the way I teach similar to Rudy in that is is familiar. I'm not saying it is the best or only way. And right now, it is not a priority of mine to attempt to create a standard way, or standard terminology for all of Hapkido. I teach certain Hapkido techniques at certain ranks because that is how I learned them going through the ranks. The hardest thing is that my instructor, Lee Jun-kyu, in Korea changed the curriculum some when he stopped teaching at Kwanjangnim's school and opened his own. So now, when I am back in Korea, sometimes what I did as a white, yellow, green, etc. belt is not exactly the same as Sabomnim Lee is teaching now. But it is still real close, and I adapt what I am doing so I know what he is teaching now, and I try to teach my students the same. Why? For one, so when I go back to Korea I am on the same sheet of music as everyone there, so I can help lower belts when my instructor asks me to, etc. Two, some of my students want to go to Korea, and next year when I am there, I am going to discuss a trip with my instructor and do some looking into the plans for a 2006 or 2007 trip with students. If my students know how my instructor in Korea teaches, and have learned the same, it will be easier for them there, and easier for him to help them without them being confused and out of order, etc. Make sense? I do some things differently, and I add some things that I have learned elsewhere into my classes, but I still also teach the HKD curriculum I learned and tested under in Korea. Right now, I am in the process of trying to develop my curriculum and put it down on paper more completely, it will be everything from Korea, plus the other stuff I add in. Is this something for everyone? No, it is for me, and those I teach. If others wanted to teach the same, it would not bother me, but if they didn't learn it that way, it may be harder to teach that way. Bruce, I respect your dedication to reasearch and HKD, and your thoughts of wanting to standardize HKD and set standards, etc. However, at this time, this is not a priority or goal of mine. My goals are to learn and train as much as I can fit in, continue to improve my teaching, and be the best teacher I can be for those that choose to learn from me in person through my classes and seminars, or though products I develop. At this time, I do not have the desire or time to create or work on a governing body, a world wide standard or curriculm. And I'm not that sure if one can really be developed than everyone would embrace. So I have not been ignoring you, I just have been busy as can be with my 9 month old and trying to get a lot done. I wish you success with your endeavors, and maybe I can add something positive to them at times. Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest