Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:01:18 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #529 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on behemoth2.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: young dans (Dante) 2. Dr. Kimms Books (Chris Holmes) 3. Young Dans - Don't Teach Kids (Donnelly, Eamonn) 4. Re: Names and numbers ....... (Bruce Sims) 5. Re: Dr Kimms' Books (Bruce Sims) 6. Re: names and numbers....... (Bruce Sims) 7. 10th Dans (Linda Valdivia) 8. Re: Re: Names and numbers (Jeremy Anderson) 9. terminology (michael tomlinson) 10. Book Larnin (Lois Knorr) 11. Re: young dans (Richard Wright) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:20:46 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Dante To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] young dans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Comments I made on a TKD board discussing with someone her 5 year old Black Belt child. I would be interested in the DD folks thoughts. Dante ------------------------------ I think the discussion is no longer about semantics, it is about definitions. In all of the other styles I have studied besides TKD (as in put on a white belt and gone to regular classes) Aikido, Hapkido, Shito Ryu Karate, Shorinji Kempo, I have never seen, nor heard of this age of Black Belt. Judo I'm not sure but haven't heard. Definitional? Taekwondo is the only art I know that not only promotes this age to Black Belt, but takes pride in it...How many news articles have you seen about how little 5 year old Johnny/Sarah got her Black Belt. As I have said before, a Black Belt is one who WAS expected to be able to take an attacker's body and break it into smaller pieces, to the point of death. Ms. Sue, what conversations have you had with your child about killing another, or breaking another's bones, choking another until unconsciousness, etc? Black Belts on the board, I would ask you the same questions. Have you or your child ever been knocked down, no air to breath, hit by so many things at one time that all you can do is curl up and wait for it to end, or knocked unconscious by your/his/her instructor? Vicious? No? Ask some of your seniors, and I mean those that have been training for more than 15-20 years. I'm not criticizing, I'm trying to understand what you (plural) think this training is all about. I believe that TKD has reached the point of becoming something akin to earning another merit badge. So, do we need to change the definition of all Black Belts, or just TKD Black Belts, to that of someone who can memorize a sequence of moves, spar (but don't hit toooo hard), break some plastic, and go sit down? It has become a family endeavor, and certainly a good one for all of its benefits. Now, have I made young Black Belts, absolutely. 10 was the youngest, and he had been training for 5 years when he received it. I now have several, none younger than 10. BUT, I don't teach them knife defense, gun defense, neck breaks, spine strikes, etc. Why is it that no 6 year old Black Belt will be at knife defense seminars, stick seminars, judging seminars? They are Black Belts..........When I left the ATA, all of my under 16 Black Belts had to put on a Black Belt with a white stripe in the middle, a junior Black Belt. When they turn 16 they will have to test again to keep it. Is that the best way? Don't know, it's just my way. But back to the question. Do we need to rethink our definition of Black Belt. What does the public really think it means anymore, at least as it regards TKD? Dante J. James, Esq. Project Director AA-VIP 303-830-1105 Change is Inevitable, Growth is Optional VOTE - Your future depends on it! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 11:44:01 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dr. Kimms Books Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Burt, Just email the contact address or call the Han Do Wan at the # listed on the site. I'm at work and don't have either handy. Chris Holmes --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Donnelly, Eamonn" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:49:28 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Young Dans - Don't Teach Kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce said "I don't teach kids because, frankly, they can't cash the checks their little egos (and that of their parents) write." Teaching the spoilt brats of doting desirous parents can be difficult and taxing (just ask any school teacher) but someone has to do it. Bruce I hope you're joking, yours is a sweeping generalisation and is a disservice to a lot of wonderful kids and even some parents ;-). I have seen numerous children who were not receiving adequate parental control and guidance in life, were shy / being bullied, or simple directionless. However with the care and attention of a good MA instructor they acquired respect for themselves and others around them, developing into mature, confident and socially responsible adults. Perhaps if more MA instructors like you (rather than the "McDojangs") took on board teaching kids the world or at least your part of it might be a nicer place. With respect Eamonn Confidentiality Note: The information in this electronic mail ("e-mail") message may be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by privilege, work product immunity or other applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient the retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this electronic mail ("e-mail") in error please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0) 24 7686 2000 or by e-mail at postmaster@cel-international.com. Thank you. Registered in England No. 3877626 Registered Office 256 Foleshill Road Coventry CV6 5AB --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 09:49:59 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Names and numbers ....... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....So...let me get this straight. You embrace diversity in terms of "what is Hapkido", but you feel the need to drive everyone toward a common terminology......" Nobody is "driving" anybody. But I DO think it is stupid and not a little premature to talk about "diversity" when noone has a set of common terms, practices and philosophy from which one might "divert" in the first place. Its the same problem as introducing "new things" from other systems when people have not mastered the material in the Korean systems. Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 09:53:39 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dr Kimms' Books Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....Or can they be ordered through them, and they just aren't listed on the site? Help?...." Actually, Bert, I would contact JR West. I'd bet he has a couple of copies laying around at any one time or can probably get them for you quicker than anyone else. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:01:56 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: names and numbers....... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".......I do some things differently, and I add some things that I have learned elsewhere into my classes, but I still also teach the HKD curriculum I learned and tested under in Korea. Right now, I am in the process of trying to develop my curriculum and put it down on paper more completely, it will be everything from Korea, plus the other stuff I add in. Is this something for everyone? No, it is for me, and those I teach. If others wanted to teach the same, it would not bother me, but if they didn't learn it that way, it may be harder to teach that way......." Right you are, Alain. Everything you said is very important and we both know your students and your teacher are lucky to have you. Lets take what you shared a step farther. As long as your students communicate with each other and you and your instructor things are fine. What happens when they go into another school, or another system, to another teacher or some other event hosted by another art or lineage? How do they communicate intelligently about what they do and why when they are interacting with someone not of their own tradition? How does the system grow to become something more than what we were handed if we cannot discourse intelligently about what we do and why? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:58:43 -0800 (PST) From: Linda Valdivia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 10th Dans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Out of curiousity, does anyone know who the 5 10th Dans in WTF Taekwondo are and where they are from? Linda "That which does not kill me makes me stronger" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:59:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Names and numbers To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net --- Bruce Sims wrote: > OF COURSE, when we get out on the mat, its not a > problem. When we are out on the mat we can SHOW each > other what we are talking about. NOW---- do exactly > the same thing you have written in your post with, > say, Kevin, but do it here on the DD using only words > and no pictures. Put your technical interactions at > Jackson in a magazine article so that all of the > practitioners of the Hapkido arts, regardless of > affiliation can understand and appreciate and comment > on the comment---- but don't use any pictures. Sit in > a bar or a restaurant and converse about technique and > constructs of the Hapkido arts but don't touch the > other person and don't "air-demo" the biomechanics. > Discuss the roll of "re-direction", "unfocusing" or > "untiming" in the successful execution of a technique > with someone who uses different terms for these > concepts---- and DON'T take time to define the terms > first. FWIW. Why wouldn't you take time to smurf your smurfs? If I was honestly trying to communicate with someone, and they were honestly trying to understand, then if they didn't smurf what I was smurfing, you can bet your bottom smurf that I'd smurf it to them...Being unwilling to do so is just not smurfy on my part. Is the in-to-out crescent kick the same as the outer crescent kick the same as the outer vertical kick? I don't know until someone smurfs the smurfs. Suppose you or someone else puts a whole lot of effort into creating a universal hapkido terminology. Excellent. Then what makes that terminology better than all the other bazillion terminologies out there? And more importantly, how is someone trying to propogate a universal terminology any less ego-bound then everyone else being unwilling to accept it? Why not just adopt and teach the most popular terminology, while encouraging others to do the same, instead? The big problem isn't whether the terminology is universally accepted or not. Martial arts are physical skills. Trying to talk about them will only get you so far, no matter what terminology you adopt. Jeremy Anderson. P.S.: By the way, what *is* the REAL reason martial arts books sell? Maybe I'm naive, but I honestly don't know. JDA. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page – Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:17:04 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] terminology Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If anyone is interested in the common terminology myself along with Steve Mortel, Master Mike McCarty, and Harold Master Whalen hammered out 14 years ago you can check it out on my website at: zdragon.bitbytenibble.com the Hapkido and Sin Moo Hapkido pages have several techniques categorized ALL in our common terminology... if anyone wants to "borrow" this terminology and incorporate it,, have at it.. it was developed for everyone.... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:04:42 -0500 (EST) From: Lois Knorr To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Book Larnin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Terry commented: “Someone that came in with nothing but tons of hours spent learning only from books and videos would likely take longer to reach 1st Dan than if he/she hadn't wasted all that time. You will probably develop poor form and a lot if very bad habits that will have to be unlearned before the real learning can begin.” This reminds me of a public introduction my instructor recently gave of me: “Lois has been with me for over three years and has a black belt in Karate. It took her the first two years to unlearn the Karate…” It was not that he ever told me my karate form was wrong or required that I change the way I stood or executed my kicks – maybe that was one of the reasons it took me so long to change J. He wisely knew that until my paradigm changed, no amount of external change was going to be internalized. I needed to make TKD my art, rather than a substitute for the art I loved. Reading some of the comments on the board about simultaneous 9th Dans in both TKD and Hapkido has got me to thinking about complementary martial arts vs. parallel martial arts vs. divergent martial arts. Thoughts or comments? Lois --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:15:29 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Wright Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] young dans To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree with your analysis of the issue and practice of limiting the practice of child black belts. As a current practitioner of TDK, and in the past Judo (I do not know of any Judoka under the age of 10 who hold a black belt), it has been my observation that we do children a disservice by expecting them to be entrusted with the responsibilities that accompany learning techniques whose sole purpose is to severely maim and/or kill an adversary. In many TDK schools there seems to be a phenomenon that I have coined "curriculum black belts," that is black belts who can parrot the required kicks, blocks, forms (poomse), etc. of the curriculum but who cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag and who seem to lack an understanding of the "essence" of martial arts practice. A while ago a student of the TDK school, a black belt, was assaulted on the street and suffered a brain injury. I was floored by his later comment that at the initiation of the encounter he froze, and that further he was not prepared for the visciousness of the attack. He went on to state that the two techniques he tried didn't work. This was a student who had been a 1st Dan for over a year, taught classes and saw himself as a leader in the school. I asked if he executed the techniques like he did in class...the "yes" answer was enough said. Certainly instructors who promote students who are not adequately prepared share some of the responsibility for what I see as a degredation of the value of a black belt in TDK. Perhaps there needs to be two tracks in TDK, olympic sparring track, and self defense track. Just my 2 cents --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest