Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:32:05 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #530 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re -Dr. Kimm's Hapkido Bible I / II (kevin_janisse@comcast.net) 2. Re: young dans (Craig Zeigler) 3. young dans and black belt (Boit Clinton Capt AF/DPMP) 4. WTF 10th Dans (Master Arce) 5. Re: Names and numbers ....... (CStovall@nucorar.com) 6. 5 year olds again (Charles Richards) 7. Re: JR black belts (Kevin Luttrell) 8. Re: Little Folk (Bruce Sims) 9. Re: names and numbers .......... (Bruce Sims) 10. Re: WTF 10th Dans (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: kevin_janisse@comcast.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:28:10 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re -Dr. Kimm's Hapkido Bible I / II Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Bert, You can find many good Hapkido books including Dr. Kimm's at www.Ryukyu.com Keep in mind Dr. Kimm often brings many of his books to Master Wests seminars and offers them at at better price. Sincerely, Kevin Janisse --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:05:20 -0500 From: Craig Zeigler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] young dans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Richard Wright wrote: >I agree with your analysis of the issue and practice of limiting the practice of child black belts. As a current practitioner of TDK, and in the past Judo (I do not know of any Judoka under the age of 10 who hold a black belt), it has been my observation that we do children a disservice by expecting them to be entrusted with the responsibilities that accompany learning techniques whose sole purpose is to severely maim and/or kill an adversary. In many TDK schools there seems to be a phenomenon that I have coined "curriculum black belts," that is black belts who can parrot the required kicks, blocks, forms (poomse), etc. of the curriculum but who cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag and who seem to lack an understanding of the "essence" of martial arts practice. A while ago a student of the TDK school, a black belt, was assaulted on the street and suffered a brain injury. I was floored by his later comment that at the initiation of the encounter he froze, and that > further he was not prepared for the visciousness of the attack. He went on to state that the two techniques he tried didn't work. This was a student who had been a 1st Dan for over a year, taught classes and saw himself as a leader in the school. I asked if he executed the techniques like he did in class...the "yes" answer was enough said. Certainly instructors who promote students who are not adequately prepared share some of the responsibility for what I see as a degredation of the value of a black belt in TDK. Perhaps there needs to be two tracks in TDK, olympic sparring track, and self defense track. Just my 2 cents > > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > You are absolutly right. In the school I go to now, are many very young black belts... Many of these couldn't possibly defend themselves against a real attack. The school I attend currently is mainly a sport/point sparing school, and I don't think I will be continuing there much longer. Origionally I came from a school where belts were much harder to come by, and we had a total of 3 black belts in the entire school ( not including the instructor of course) I was very proud to have been one of those 3. It is getting harder and harder to find a school that teaches a more practical, self-defence style of TKD. Chances are that I will have to give up my black belt to join a new school, but I think it will be worth it to find another self-defence school. The parents of these younger students want their child to be a black belt, and it does deminish the status of that rank when half the class holds it, and most can't perform to the standards that are associated with it. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:20:53 -0500 From: "Boit Clinton Capt AF/DPMP" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] young dans and black belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Seems like there is a new issue here..."what is a black belt?" Is it a person who can defend themselves or is it more than that?? This discussion started with young dans, but many of the people posting recently have been saying basically that if the person can't defend themselves then they shouldn't be black belts. Well, sorry folks, but being a black belt is more than just self-defense...which goes back to the first issue -- young Dans usually don't understand what more is required than just throwing kicks and punches. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:32:47 -0800 (PST) From: Master Arce To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF 10th Dans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think one, was former IOC President, Juan Antonio Samaranch... but I heard he had it revoked from him.... Anyone else? Master Terry? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:44:43 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Names and numbers ....... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Oh...so you wanna get sassy about it. You specifically stated that you had shied away from using particular reference works because an endorsement on your part might serve to "press a particular view of Hapkido". This seems to suggest that you recognize and respect the diverse nature of the Hapkido arts. In other words, it means different things to different people, as well as existing in different forms. It means the arts are applied in different ways with different technical influences. It might even mean that the arts have different names altogether. I don't think it's premature (or stupid) to talk about diversity within the Hapkido arts. It is this very diversity that is at the root of all these different terminologies. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. 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Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:00:39 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 5 year olds again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "Certainly instructors who promote students who are not adequately prepared share some of the responsibility for what I see as a degredation of the value of a black belt in TDK. Perhaps there needs to be two tracks in TDK, olympic sparring track, and self defense track. Just my 2 cents" MC Reply Being a TSD school that plays in the AAU sandbox we've now been enjoying WTF (OS) sparring for about 3 years now. I'd say if you're training in OS sparring with the right coach, you're in better physical condition than most "traditional" martial artists, and probably fare better at recovering after receiving some real contact. To me the two tracks are better defined as cirriculum black belts and essence black belts. Do to age, injuries, and other mitigating factors, probably less than 10% of my upcomming candidates will perform at a B or higher level the entire cirriculum to Cho Dan, but all will have shown me over 3 years (most 4-5) of constant and never ending improvement, the ability to overcome obstacles and solid basic motion. Most importantly, individually they will pass a test my mentor GM West defined. "Imagine you and your entire school are to be represented solely by the next person you promote to blackbelt." I am proud that Niko Sa Ja Nim represents our school as a 5 year old with two years experience and a plain white belt. YIJD, MC --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:31:16 -0800 (PST) From: Kevin Luttrell To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: JR black belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Sir, My Definition of black belt is quite a bit different than yours I think. What about a 60 or 70 year old student, or a handicapped student? A black belt is someone who starts at a specific point in their training life and trains toward learning more than fighting skills, even a 15 or 20 year practitioner can get his but kicked in a confrontation. He just has alot more training and experience against confrontation. He has learned how to overcome obsticles and use resources to make his situation improved or completely overcome the challenge. from where he started in his training he has trained his body, mind and spirit to a point of self sufficiency and integrity to deserve the title black belt. But to say that a black belt should be able to break his attacker into little pieces, lol. Even the most skilled black belt can lose a battle, it happens every day. But in my opinion, the mentality that leads people to believe that a black belt is about purely physical skills and without those skills they don't deserve to be called a black belt, degrades the rank. Just as a larger opponent can generate great amounts of power with little skill and overcome a certain obsticle, with little or no speed or flexibility. A much smaller person in the same situation can overcome the same obsticle, generate the same power compensating his lack of size with his speed, flexibility and strategy. Each person must explore his self and his natural talents and train to improve his weakness, all the while training, and hardening his spirit and his mind to handle situations as they come. I am sure most senior black belts have had the experience of sparring with people who are more advanced in years, obviously weakened by age and time passed, obvious to everyone that the younger stronger faster student could beat easily, and to everyone suprise the older, weaker, more advanced person handles him with ease. Now, I use Poom, or Junior black belt system just as you. Under 16 is Poom for us. But a blanket statement about Tae Kwon Do as a Style is wrong. I agree that there are instructors, not only in TKD, but every style, that promote before its time. No doubt, thats the fact of it and it doesn't have a thing to do with TKD as a style. It's purely about the integrity of the instructor, and the people who supervise him. Just as in everything we do, Its the integrity of the people and not the art itself. Master Kevin Luttrell Director The Martial Artist Foundation Springfield, Mo. Visit The Martial Artist Foundation Official Website at http://www.sporttkd.com or join The Martial Artist Foundation Yahoo Group for free and keep up on Sport Martial Arts events:= "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/themartialartistfoundation/join"> --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:31:34 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Little Folk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry, Eamon, but my position stands. I don't have any illusions about what I teach my students which is why I make such a pain-in-the-butt of myself to many people----even right here on DD-- about teaches values, mores and subscribing to a Warriors' Path. I bet there are a lot of nice kids, and little folk who have errant parents and on and on. Guess what? Ain't my problem. I teach an adult art to adults. Let the little kids have their parents pay for real child care instead of asking some MA teacher to compromise his curriculum so he can keep the doors open and the lights on. If the little tykes want to play dress-up or do their best "Chan" imitation let 'em. They just can't use the material of the kwan to which I belong to do it. I wrote exactly what I believe. Little kids' lives are unable to cash the checks they write with their fantasies. Hell, there a s***load of high school age kids that can't even take responsibility for their own bodies and the babies those bodies produce. Just how are they going to take responsibility for choking out an attacker, bursting an eyeball, breaking a knee and so forth? Now if someone wants to feel good giving some half-pint an adult rank, go for it. I know there are parents who take their kids out to the parking lots with the car just to give them a thrill that way to.But lets remember that there is a reason that kids have to be a certain age to drive for real. When the "thrill" wears off those kids still have to meet the responsibilities of being dedicated practitioners. FWIW. Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:45:42 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: names and numbers .......... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jeremy: "......Suppose you or someone else puts a whole lot of effort into creating a universal hapkido terminology. Excellent. Then what makes that terminology better than all the other bazillion terminologies out there? And more importantly, how is someone trying to propogate a universal terminology any less ego-bound then everyone else being unwilling to accept it? Why not just adopt and teach the most popular terminology, while encouraging others to do the same, instead? The big problem isn't whether the terminology is universally accepted or not. Martial arts are physical skills. Trying to talk about them will only get you so far, no matter what terminology you adopt......." Before you understand what is going on here you are probably going to have to do a couple of things. 1.) You are going to need to drop the idea of this being a single persons' effort. I am not advocating this as something that one person does and asks everyone else to accept. I'm asking that Hapkido people participate in a joint and open-ended effort to make discussing what they do and how they do it understandable to the widest possible audience. 2.) You are going to have to let go of people being MADE to use this language. Use is as voluntary as the project itself. 3.) You are going to have to open you view of the Hapkido arts. See, while we can talk about Ji's tradition, or Myungs' tradition, there are folks reading this right now that have garnered a little bit of this and a littlebit of that. They would like to particiapte in the Hapkido community but they don't know how and not having a common vernacular just makes it harder for them. Now if you will do these three things, you will answer your own question because THIS is how such a terminology would be better. The only thing that holding most people back is that the admission that they are no better and no worse than somebody else in the Hapkido arts. Once we start emphasizing similarities rather than differences people will have to start admitting that the only reason they have pushed the sorts of conflicts that they have is that it makes them appear to be exclusive or elite in some fashion. But thats a subject for another string. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] WTF 10th Dans To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:12:26 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I think one, was former IOC President, Juan Antonio > Samaranch... but I heard he had it revoked from him.... > > Anyone else? Master Terry? Not sure. I think they were all honorary. KIM Un-yong probably received one. Probably revoked by now... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest