Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 03:03:58 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #532 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. SBD/TSD GladewaterSBD (George Peters) 2. Names and Numbers (Sharon Tkach) 3. names and numbers (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Names (Rudy Timmerman) 5. Re: Mu Yei Tobo Tong Ji (Bruce Sims) 6. Re: young dans (Martin Von Cannon) 7. Re: Re: Mu Yei Tobo Tong Ji (Ray Terry) 8. 10th dans and "real black belts" (Tkdsid@aol.com) 9. from MSN Health News (Ray Terry) 10. JR black belts (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 11. Belt Colors & Rank Recognition (JOHNMAUSA@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 01:14:52 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] SBD/TSD GladewaterSBD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, Thank you very much, Sir, for your answer. I just have always had a question about the percentages as stated in my prior post. Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Sharon Tkach" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 00:28:20 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Names and Numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I said: "IMHO, where you ran into trouble was in trying to set up a standard of what constitutes an acceptable (legitimate, minimum, whatever) Hapkido curriculum, which is how this thread started. From other posts on this topic, it appears that most list members are happy with what they have and don't feel the need to conform to someone else's list, nor participate in a mandate of what others' curriculum must include to be "Hapkido." Therefore, to them, said list is unnecessary and not worth the trouble of working toward. Just because others do not share your goals does not make them "exclusionary."......." Bruce responded: >I'm sorry, but to put it plainly I don't think you are listening. Did I misunderstand your goal as stated by you in Vol. 11, #477? "What the project is working to accomplish is to identify a set of minimal standards that individuals representing themselves as Hapkido practitioners could be expected to know. Rather than simply adopt a single standard from a particular group and ask other groups to accept those techniques as a standard in toto, I have been working to find those techniques which continually turn-up in each tradition regardless of their leadership. So far we have 11 kicks that everyone practicing a Hapkido art use. Two kicks which turm-up a very high number of times, though not in all basic material are the Inside and Outside Crescent kicks as well as the Roundhouse Kick. The spinning kicks certainly turn-up in most of the traditions but farther down the line in training. We also are working on an English and a Korean set of terms to try to get some sort of standardization there as well, but right now just organizing a list seems to be the top of the agenda." Who is the "we" working on this project? Bruce continued: >OF COURSE, when we get out on the mat, its not a >problem. When we are out on the mat we can SHOW each >other what we are talking about. NOW---- do exactly >the same thing you have written in your post with, >say, Kevin, but do it here on the DD using only words >and no pictures. Put your technical interactions at >Jackson in a magazine article so that all of the >practitioners of the Hapkido arts, regardless of >affiliation can understand and appreciate and comment >on the comment---- but don't use any pictures. Sit in >a bar or a restaurant and converse about technique and >constructs of the Hapkido arts but don't touch the >other person and don't "air-demo" the biomechanics. >Discuss the roll of "re-direction", "unfocusing" or >"untiming" in the successful execution of a technique >with someone who uses different terms for these >concepts---- and DON'T take time to define the terms >first. FWIW. My point was not about the merits of a common terminology, but rather your use of the term "exclusionary" applied to those who are not as eager as you to come up with the terminology. Perhaps you are not hearing. ~Sharon --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 03:44:06 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] names and numbers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce and Jere: > Actually, Jere, thats not a half-bad idea. And you are > absolutely right, anyone who seems at all serious > about practicing the Hapkido arts seems to come back > to Kimms' book over and over. Furthermore, Dr. Kimm > never seems to have any problems about making himself > available for in-put. My only reservation to using him > or Myung or Tedeschis' book in the past has been the > trouble with making sure that we were not pressing a > particular view of the Hapkido arts. if we could put > that far enough to one side maybe Dr Kimms material > would be a very good foundation. I'd love to know what > other people would think of this. I think this would be a great start; however, what about copyrights etc??? Like you said, many folks use Dr. Kimm's book as prime reference material, so the idea seems logical to me. I have always hated to reinvent the wheel, and as far as pushing any ONE person's idea... would YOUR interpretation not be doing the same thing Bruce??? Lots of work for you Bruce, but I think many folks would appreciate it. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 03:53:07 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Names Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Melinda writes: > yep, gm rudy (does anyone else have this crazy desire to call him > "uncle > rudy", too??) Hi Melinda: Perhaps Gramps is more appropriate lol. In any case, I don't mind either way... being considered family is all good:) The "wall" as a tool is great for making sure the students keep a slight bend in the arm to prevent hyper extension, so I tell parents I do it for their children's safety. Most buy it too. Amazing what you can get away with when you are old and they think you know it all:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 07:48:42 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mu Yei Tobo Tong Ji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folks: Probably more than most people I think I enjoy discussing this work and many of the attendent works that proceed from it. I think it would help if folks please study-up on the piece before commenting as we run the risk of disseminating incorrect information or maybe just incorrect conclusions. Lets take a look. "...... 1) Why do you believe that the compilers of the MYDBTJ were martial artists at all, much less master martial artists? Is it not more likely that they were academics?...." Ok, now WHO are we talking about? If you mean the most recent translation into English, yes, I will agree that Dr. Kim's translation is a fine contribution but that he played pretty fast and loose with his translation--- which is, in many places more of a "transliteration". He is not a swordsman, nor a practitioner of Ship Pal Gi. He took what he had and tranliterated it into comfortable English. Think of it as a "King James Version" of the book. However, the MYTBTJ has been translated 3 other times, and is still sold regularly at Kyobo Bookstore in the original. To continue, if you are speaking of the 1795 publication, the compilation was the third variation of this work and yes, was essentially put together by the court librarian. That does not mean he did not work from accurate source material including the two previous versions (Mu Yei Je Bo & Mu Yei Shin Bo) as well as the Jin Xiao Shin Shu of General Qi and the Wae Gum material of Han Kyo. The book itself is the culmination of a synthesis of over 200 works spanning the martial culture of Korea beginning in the late 1400-s up to almost 1800. The fact that it might have been compiled in its final version by a librarian does not detract from the fact that the material it contains guided the training of Korean military well into the 1800-s. "..... 2) Why do you feel that the kwon-bub material in the MYDBTJ, which is not presented as Su Bahk, could lead anyone of any era to develop something "close to" Su Bahk? What I mean by this is, the material in the manual is not su bahk, so using that material can not really lead a person to develop su bahk, can it?....." The "Kwon Bup" Chapter of the MYTBTJ is almost posture for posture taken from General Chi's Boxing Canon (Chapter 18; Jin Xiao Shin Shu). What causes consternation for modern practitioners (as well as no end of problems for the Korean military of the time) was that the Kwon Bup material had been reorganized into paired work in which techniques were matched so as to make them mutually cancelling. By this I mean that a technique was paired with a counter-technique to produce a "stalemate" of sorts rather than a clear triumph for one person or the other. For this reason the material feel into disfavor. This is probably why folks tease out material to use, but have never had much use for the chapter in its entirety. Now. Nothing I have said can't be found by simply reading the damn book. Its all in the book. Not the jacket. Not the cover. Not a review. All you have to do is read it! Its been translated into English and is available through most commercial bookstores I know. All you have to do is read it and it will answer your questions. And for my part I would LOVE to discuss it with anyone else who is interested. But if you have not read it, I really don't think people are qualified to comment on it, do you? FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:51:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] young dans From: "Martin Von Cannon" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > further he was not prepared for the visciousness of the attack. He went > on to state that the two techniques he tried didn't work. This was a > student who had been a 1st Dan for over a year, taught classes and saw > himself as a leader in the school. I asked if he executed the > techniques like he did in class...the "yes" answer was enough said. > Certainly instructors who promote students who are not adequately > prepared share some of the responsibility for what I see as a degredation > of the value of a black belt in TDK. Perhaps there needs to be two > tracks in TDK, olympic sparring track, and self defense track. Just my 2 > cents. You have hit the nail on the head with this one. I do agree with you that there could be two tracks for TKD, or any Martial Art that would do this. However, where do you draw the line? Could someone that trains for the Sport Side actually defend themself? I feel they could. Most of what is taught in Dojangs today is used in athletics. Drive, determination, and confidence. All of which would be needed in a real confrontation. Maybe a bit more realistic training could be used. Keep it controled. Have the students come in with street clothes a few times a month / year and train that way. Let the students explore with the teach by using what if scenarios. Just my opinion. -- Martin Von Cannon Instructor Tacoma, WA. Dojang A Black Belt is more than something you wear. It's more than something you earn. A Black Belt is something you become. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Mu Yei Tobo Tong Ji To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 08:26:57 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: > Dear Folks: > > Probably more than most people I think I enjoy > discussing this work and many of the attendent works > that proceed from it. I think it would help if folks > please study-up on the piece before commenting as we > run the risk of disseminating incorrect information or > maybe just incorrect conclusions. Lets take a look. > > "...... 1) Why do you believe that the compilers of > the MYDBTJ were martial artists at all, much > less master martial artists? Is it not more likely > that they were academics?...." > > Much snipped... Ok, fine. But how does that address the above. What makes you think those that compiled the books were martial arts masters? No where did you address that. > "..... 2) Why do you feel that the kwon-bub material > in the MYDBTJ, which is not presented as Su Bahk, > could lead anyone of any era to develop something > "close to" Su Bahk? What I > mean by this is, the material in the manual is not su > bahk, so using that material can not really lead a > person to develop su bahk, can it?....." > > Much more snipped. Ok, fine. But how does that address the above. What makes you think that the Kwon Bup section as anything to do with Su Bak? No where did you address that. You start off as if you are in disagreement with Anthony, but then you give no info as to how or where he is off base. Or so it seems to me... And yes, I also purchased the same book in Seoul, but I still can't read it, so I rely on the various translations... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 12:07:03 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 10th dans and "real black belts" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gentlemen; Un Young Kim and Juan Antonio Sanrucci (spelling?) were 2 of the 10th dans, I understand the vice President of the kukkiwon was also a 10th dan. I believe there ought to be categories of black belts. eg> Combat black belts, seniority black belts, tradition black belts; all of which would carry some designation on the tip of their belt. Maybe I'm off base here, but I really do know an 8 year old that is a 2nd dan. Gimmeee a break!!!! I believe that a 2nd dan should be more than 5 years away from toilet training!!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely, Sid Rubinfeld, 2nd dan AND 55 years old! --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:38:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] from MSN Health News Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Martial arts for middle-age health Chicago - Tired of treadmills? Apathetic about aerobics? Forget about them. For get-up-and-go, try soo bahk do instead. Soo bahk do is a martial art. Think of it as a cross between karate and tai chi. Better still, think of it as an alternative to the types of exercise more traditional for Americans. A small study shows that middle-aged martial arts students are in pretty darn good shape compared with their couch-potato peers. In fact, the study shows that these soo bahk do students are getting all the exercise workout they need. The report by Peter Douris, EdD, and colleagues at the New York Institute of Technology in Old Westbury, N.Y., appears in the current issue of the British Journal of Sports Medicine. "The soo bahk do practitioners displayed greater aerobic capacity, balance, flexibility, muscle endurance, and strength -- and less body fat -- then the sedentary [study participants] matched for age and sex," Douris and colleagues conclude. Because of their regular exercise workouts, the martial arts practitioners had 19% body fat, compared with 30.8% body fat in the no-exercise group. They could last more than twice as long on a balancing test, bend twice as far on the sit-and-reach test, and averaged nearly 30 more sit-ups. "It appears that soo bahk do training may be a complete form of exercise encompassing all the components of fitness," Douris and colleagues write. "Health professionals should be aware that there are alternative methods to traditional exercise that can increase the physical fitness and health of the middle-aged population." -- MSN Health News --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 15:02:39 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] JR black belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Kevin Luttrell I agree with your posting and thought that it was a very good one. "My Definition of black belt is quite a bit different than yours I think. What about a 60 or 70-year-old student, or a handicapped student? A black belt is someone who starts at a specific point in their training life and trains toward learning more than fighting skills, even a 15 or 20 year practitioner can get his but kicked in a confrontation. He just has a lot more training and experience against confrontation. He has learned how to overcome obstacles and use resources to make his situation improved or completely overcome the challenge. from where he started in his training he has trained his body, mind and spirit to a point of self-sufficiency and integrity to deserve the title black belt. But to say that a black belt should be able to break his attacker into little pieces, lol. Even the most skilled black belt can lose a battle, it happens every day. But in my opinion, the mentality that leads people to believe that a black belt is about purely physical skills and without those skills they don't deserve to be called a black belt, degrades the rank…." My view of what it means to be a 1st dan black belt has change since I got my first black belt in 1973 in TSD MDK. Back in those days, I understood black belt meant expert and my instructor at that time was very selective about who earned a black belt. He was very conservative about it to say the least. It required at least 3 years of very hard training and the black belt test was a 3 + hours marathon, which included performing 12 forms, at least 10+ sparring matches, one step sparring demo, breaking, self defense against grabs/holds and other stuff. One was very beat up when it was over. Some of his very best students would fail the test or get provisional in their first attempt, which required one to retest for 1st dan, but they could wear a black belt. NO one under 16 could get a black belt and, if you were middle age, it was at least 5 years to black belt test and you better be in good shape. No one 50 or older need apply. Fortunately, I was 19 years old and could handle the physical challenge. Today, I probably could not past that test, but I do have significantly more knowledge and experience in MA. Today, I view the 1st dan black belt as more of a beginning for one has learned a basic curriculum. Black belt is a not expert. Black belt does not mean one is invisible or will win most fights. Black belt does mean that one has learned a self-defense curriculum, which does better prepare them for a fight or self-defense. They will spend many years practicing their basic curriculum, learning more advance skills and hopefully gain a very good understanding of what it all means. If they stay the course and training very hard, they may someday be recognized as a master. Thanks for letting me share my 2 cents. John --__--__-- Message: 11 From: JOHNMAUSA@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:54:26 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Belt Colors & Rank Recognition Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been an active student and teacher of the martial arts for more than fifty years. I have met, trained or have been directly associated with thousands of martial artists. I have yet to see any child (male or female) under the age of seventeen, who has the maturity, has earned or deserves the right to wear the black-belt, regardless of the art! I know this will ruffle some feathers, but this is my personal opinion, and I know that you gentlemen will grant me the right to express my opinion, whether you agree or not. In the early years of Kodokan Judo, there was only the white belt and black. Students began their training with the white belt and remained there until they earned the right to wear the coveted black-belt. During this time period they paid their dues by enduring harsh training that would be viewed by today's standards as brutal. Most of their training consisted of catering to the needs of the senior black belts and serving as their uki. The uki would withstand hundreds if not thousands of throws over a long period of time, while the senior judoka would sharpen their skills or train for competition. The white-belt uki would actually learn by concentrating on what and how the tori was throwing him. After training each day, the uki would spend his personal time cleaning the dojo/dojang, washing the senior's uniform and nursing his own bruised and battered body. He would then ready himself for more of the same the next day. In my early years of judo/yudo training (1950's-1960's), the belt colors were white, yellow, blue, green three-browns and black. Any teacher or student could walk into a school or tournament, look out across the room and immediately recognize by belt color, the ability level and rank of every person. As the years rolled along, I have witnessed the use of every color belt known to both man and the Crayola Corporation. When martial arts schools ran out of the solid colors, they started to combine stripes and/or tip color of every combination. The only two belt colors that I have not seen are Pink and Grizzly-Gray! I a totally against anyone wearing the Solid-Red Belt other than a Supreme Grandmaster or Soke. Some teachers change the belt colors of their students so often, that their old belts are still stiff and show the fold marks. Running a young student through a barrel of belts every few weeks, is used to generates greater income from testing and promotional fees, that I personally find distasteful! If offering a new color belt every few weeks is the only way that a teacher can retain their students, then you need to fake a good hard look at what you are teaching. With their learning experience, try to include training that is both exciting and FUN! John Chambers Martial Arts USA --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest