Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:03:32 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #533 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Names and numbers...... (Bruce Sims) 2. Re: Names and Numbers....... (Bruce Sims) 3. Re: Mu Yei Tobo Tong Ji (Bruce Sims) 4. 2nd Dan (Lois Knorr) 5. RE: Little Folk (Jeff Yeagley) 6. Re: Control (Jye nigma) 7. Muye Dobo Tongji (Ray Terry) 8. Taekwondo on a new high (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:04:33 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Names and numbers...... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Sharon: "......My point was not about the merits of a common terminology, but rather your use of the term "exclusionary" applied to those who are not as eager as you to come up with the terminology....." My use of the term "exclusionary" was very specific. If people advocate for the use of a particular taxonomy as organized by a particular individual I have no problem with that. For my part I rely heavily on Myungs' work. jere Hilland suggested using Dr. Kimm. Michael Tomlinson has volunteered the vocabulary that THEy use. This is all good. Its all ingredients in the stew, if you will. Where I have a problem is when someone digs in and says, ".... but we already HAVE a vocabulary. Why don't we all just use_________(fill in a name)_____." As far as I am concerned this just puts us back to square one. It is NOT a joint effort, and does NOT take into account the differing priorities of one Hapkido art against another. As far as the "we", I am surprised you need to ask. That "we" includes you. And Jere. And Ray. And anyone else who is pitching in. I would point out that if one has to ask "who" the the "we" is maybe this is a perfect example of how the in-fighting of the last 20 years has caused us to immediately thi nk of the Hapkido arts as nothing more than a collection of splinter groups. Ever wonder what basic impulses cause us to habitually think of our community as a collection of isolated entities perpetually threatening each others integrity? We SAY we don't intend this, but look at our behaviors, yes? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:09:42 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Names and Numbers....... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy: ".....I think this would be a great start; however, what about copyrights......" I think this would be more of a problem if we were lifting whole sections in toto, or maybe using Dr. Kimms work exclusively. In this case I suspect that the material would simply be one more contribution used to shape the larger corpus of the work. And there are still fine points to work out. For instance, what about the striking techniques, for example. Do we use the term "soo do" for "knifehand" meaning the way that the hand is formed FOR the strike, or do we use "soo do chigi" meaning (" astrike using the knifehand" or "knifehand striking"). We have quite a ways to go, yes? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:22:28 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mu Yei Tobo Tong Ji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "......Ok, fine. But how does that address the above. What makes you think those that compiled the books were martial arts masters? No where did you address that....." Short answer. The last person, Yi, Duk-Moo, may not have been a MA master, nor was it required that he be. "..... What makes you think that the Kwon Bup section as anything to do with Su Bak? No where did you address that....." My bad. I assumed you were better informed. What makes you think that the Kwon Bup chapter is NOT related to Su bahk? Where do you think Su Bahk came from? Maybe it would help me to know what interest you have in diminishing the importance of this work to the nature of Korean MA, yes. I have regularly made contributions documenting the importance of the MYTBTJ to Korean MA and martial science. Maybe its just me but you seem to lend very little support, and appear to find every opportunity to undercut it value even regarding the most innocuous points. Perhaps you might provide some information here. There is really no sense in me continuing to repeat myself every so often if the fact is that you would rather not hear about this. If your original "who cares" still stands I can accept that and can find other things to do. But I have to say that I take exception to you deriding this work if your "who cares" is still valid. Apparently, YOU care-- at least enough to undercut it. Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:38:34 -0500 (EST) From: Lois Knorr To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 2nd Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid Rubinfeld (2nd dan AND 55 years old!) states: “Maybe I'm off base here, but I really do know an 8 year old that is a 2nd dan. Gimmeee a break!!!! I believe that a 2nd dan should be more than 5 years away from toilet training!!!!!!!!!!!” As a 54 year-old coloured belt, I feel that by the time I reach 2nd dan, I’m going to be less than 5 years away from toilet training (in the opposite direction) lol. Lois (with tongue firmly in cheek) --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Jeff Yeagley" To: Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:32:00 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Little Folk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims wrote: "I teach an adult art to adults." This is certainly your prerogative; I think many instructors would agree that it takes a certain temperament to teach children. "Let the little kids have their parents pay for real child care instead of asking some MA teacher to compromise his curriculum so he can keep the doors open and the lights on." As to child care, I don't know of any facilities that are concerned with developing character, self discipline, and physical fitness. As far as the curriculum, I do not feel I compromised my curriculum, only modified it for the specific needs and capacities of the younger student. By the time a student reaches black belt in our dojang, the curriculums are identical. My first two black belt students (1985) were a 35 year old and a ten-almost-eleven year old, who went through the same 2 1/2 half hour test together. While I would have to agree that the popularity of martial arts with children doesn't hurt in terms of keeping the doors open, and the lights on, that has never been the reason for teaching them. I teach those who come to my dojang with a desire to train - age is not a consideration. "If the little tykes want to play dress-up or do their best "Chan" imitation let 'em. They just can't use the material of the kwan to which I belong to do it." I don't know if age is relevant here. When I began judo training in the sixties at 11 years old, I enjoyed wearing my gi. When I started TKD in 1980, even in my twenties I couldn't wait to get my dobok. Then again, that may just be me, because I still enjoy wearing it! How about it? Any other "big kids" out there who will admit to enjoying wearing their doboks? "there a s***load of high school age kids that can't even take responsibility for their own bodies and the babies those bodies produce." And what better way than the dojang for them to learn the responsibility you refer to? The educational system does what it can, but can only go so far. There are many struggling families today with two working parents, or whose parents are divorced, and many single parent households. I look at my role as partnering with parents to help educate, and develop the children of today - the leaders of tomorrow. "Just how are they going to take responsibility for choking out an attacker, bursting an eyeball, breaking a knee and so forth?" My experience in teaching children (and adults for that matter) has been that they will rise to the level of responsibility you expect of them, and believe them capable of. Like most dojangs (I assume), we stress the danger and severity of the techniques we practice. "Now if someone wants to feel good giving some half-pint an adult rank, go for it. I know there are parents who take their kids out to the parking lots with the car just to give them a thrill that way to. But lets remember that there is a reason that kids have to be a certain age to drive for real. When the "thrill" wears off those kids still have to meet the responsibilities of being dedicated practitioners." I have a problem with anyone "giving" a rank, regardless of age. Even more so, anyone who would promote a student to "feel good." I wholeheartedly agree with you that any student, regardless of age, must meet the responsibilities of being a dedicated practitioner. That's why I see a lot of adult students as well as children who eventually quit. I don't know that dedication is always necessarily a product of age. I'm not sure about a six year old getting a black belt. I guess it may be possible, but not in my experience, in my dojang. The ten year old black belt student of mine that I mentioned earlier was the youngest that I have promoted. Even at ten though, he had full responsibility including a key to the dojang, sitting on the test panel, and teaching classes on his own. I never had any problems, or worries about him forgetting to lock up, or not being able to handle a situation. Was he a unique individual, or did he learn responsibility through the training? Probably a little of both. By the way, the dedication and focus he learned in the dojang helped him to graduate high school and college at the top of his class, and go on to get his masters degree and PHD. in Criminology. In his entire academic career he never received a grade below an A. He is now a professor at the University of South Carolina, and a 3rd. degree black belt. While I am proud of this student's achievements (does it show?), he is certainly not unique in what students who begin their martial art training at an earlier age can accomplish. Two other "junior" black belts of mine are educators, one is in seminary, and one nineteen year old woman (who got her black belt at thirteen) helped extricate her friend from an abusive environment, incapacitating the abuser when he decided he would knock my student around a little! I believe she understood the responsibility when she took out the attackers knee. FWIW, in twenty years of teaching, I have only promoted twelve students to black belt. While it is anyone's choice to teach children or not, I feel those that do not are missing one of the biggest opportunities to effect positive change in the next generation. Respectfully, Jeff Yeagley Chief Instructor Academy of Fighting Arts Business Phone: 816-525-5555 Email: jeff.yeagley@wetrainharder.com Web: http://www.wetrainharder.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 09:57:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Control To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is an interesting thread. I see punching close to a target without actually touching it as a control issue...but about 90% mental 10% physical. I think of it as when I had asked my mother before I learned to drive, "mom, when your pull into a parking spot, how do you know how close you can pull up without hitting the car in front of you?" She said "you get to know your car and you 'just know' how close you are." I never understood that "just knowing" until I got older. think the same is true with controlling movements in the martial arts. When you train a portion and major portion at that, is knowing your ranges and distances; distances to be able to actually hit your target distance to be able to leave out of the opponent's striking range, etc. So I think all that needs to be done is the instructor helping the pupil to hone their skills. I started out really young punching close to an object without hitting it, very slowly gradually picking up speed and can now throw a very quick strike, kick, etc without actually hitting the target coming within an inch or less from the target...but my explanation is everything starts and ends with the mind. I use intense concentration and focus. Jye Gladewater SooBahkDo wrote: Sir; In my earlier days of training I can remember my instructor emphasizing control in sparing. We would sometimes practice kicking full power at a partner back and forth for two hours. He would say white belts should be kicking and punching within 10 inches of the target, Orange belts 6 inches, green belts 3 inches, red belts 1 inch, and Dans should be able to touch the Do-Bak. By the time we all reached dan level it just seemed natural to kick full power to the target and stop just short. It made for some dangerous looking sparing but we had few injuries. I believe it helped me become a better martial artist, and I believe learning control is important,, however there are a couple of cons to this. The Cons--- As you practice this way, you have to first make sure you are applying scientific mechanics to the techniques or you will damage joints. For example. Front trusting kick the energy goes to the ball of the foot weather you hit the target or not. Front snapping kick will go to the target if you hit it, but if you kick in the air or miss the energy will return to the knee. Research this. Con-- Make sure students get the opportunity to have full impact on a target (The Bob Targets from century are nice) You will find that if you practice inside to outside kick or Ax Kick what ever you want to call it. That if you practice clearing the head of your partner in sparing and in drills, that when given a target to hit you will sometimes miss. Your body will do what is trained to do. Students will have to realize through control, when to use the skill of controlled sparing and when to use the realism of full contact. Your training will create habits, In this concept your habit must be to use control or to use full contact when appropriate, not just control, and not just contact. Both--individually are limiting. JC _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today! --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 12:03:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Muye Dobo Tongji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "......Ok, fine. But how does that address the above. > What makes you think > those that compiled the books were martial arts > masters? No where did you address that....." > > Short answer. The last person, Yi, Duk-Moo, may not > have been a MA master, nor was it required that he be. > > "..... What makes you think > that the Kwon Bup section as anything to do with Su > Bak? No where did you address that....." > > My bad. I assumed you were better informed. What > makes you think that the Kwon Bup chapter is NOT > related to Su bahk? Yet you -continue- to claim that others are wrong or uninformed without directly addressing the issue at hand. Not very interesting to read, but rather telling on your part. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 14:31:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Taekwondo on a new high Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Taekwondo on a new high DEBASISH CHATTOPADHYAY Calcutta, Dec. 12: Taekwondo is looking for a toehold in the city of crazy cricket lovers and football fanatics. Though introduced in Calcutta as early as 1975, the martial art form has begun going up the popularity charts only recently. "The martial art hinges on movement of both legs and hands and helps a person keep physically fit while at the same time relieving stress. Perhaps this is the reason why we have people aged from four to 60 showing up at the training centres," said Sunil Goel, the vice-president of the Bengal Taekwondo Association. Taekwondo enthusiasts in the state are gearing up for their biggest annual event, the 16th state Taekwondo championship, organised by the association. Altogether, 350 boys and girls from Calcutta and the districts are practising hard for the two-day event that will commence at Khudiram Anushilan Kendra from tomorrow. "We had not imagined that within such a short period it would draw so many enthusiasts," said Goel. A number of city schools have become the platform for the martial art. With over 6,000 registered members from 15 districts, the association is affiliated to the Bengal Olympic Association and the Taekwondo Federation of India. It has produced more than 125 black belts and 25 national referees. "To master the art, one has to spend a lot of time in practice. This takes a toll on my study time, but what I am learning is important. Moreover, it is the ideal way for women to defend themselves," said Sunita Singh, a post-graduate student of Calcutta University. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest