Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:04:00 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #534 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Bruce's MYDBTJ questions (A. Boyd) 2. MDK Rank (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 3. (no subject) (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 4. Been Out (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 5. Belts again (Charles Richards) 6. Re: names and control (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 7. Response to Jeff (Frank Clay) 8. Dobohk Love (Charles Richards) 9. Re:[ The_Dojang]--The splits (Eric Mc Niffe) 10. RE: Belt Colors & Rank Recognition (Jeff Yeagley) 11. Re: MYTBTJ -- Clarification? (Bruce Sims) 12. Youth players (Charles Richards) 13. Re: Academic Martial Arts (Robert Frankovich) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:45:10 -0500 (EST) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce's MYDBTJ questions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce asked: "Who are we talking about?" In reference to my question concerning another poster's information concerning the men who compiled the Muyedobotongji. I don't feel that there is support in the book for these men having been martial artists of any type, nor do I feel that there is cultural support for it. I was curious to see what the original poster felt was true about them as he seems quite passionate about his TSD/MDK-SBD history. My answer: I think it's clear, Bruce, that I meant the three men I named, Yi, Park, and Pak (as Sang H. Kim chose to transliterate their names) - the compilers of the MYDBTJ. Both the Muye Jebo and Muye Shinbo are irrelevent in the terms of my question. Bruce then wrote about the kwonbub chapter of the MYDBTJ seemingly in response to my second question [which on second reading seems a lot less polite than I intended - apologies for that!] which was concerning the use of the kwonbub chapter to create the 'new Su Bahk'. Reading the original post again, I don't think my question was necessary as it was already answered - more or less. I'm not sure what Bruce's comments have to do with my question, but as Ray has already been kind enough to enquire about that, I don't have to ask. If I were to hazard a guess I would say that Bruce had a message he wanted to send to the list at large, (ie: read the MYDBTJ and dispel some of the myths about it) and used my questions as the intro. I'm all for that! [mock hurt] Sadly, the way he did it hurt my sensitive Canadian feelings. I'm just a little fellow -barely 140 lbs!- and I'm not used to all of this rough-and-tumble harsh talk with all-caps lettering on the big scary Dojang Digest.... [/mock hurt] ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 20:43:42 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] MDK Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net FYI In the Moo Duk Kwan HC Hwang was promoted to 9th Dan by Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim. He is the only 9th Dan ever promoted by the founder of Moo Duk Kwan. JC --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:44:23 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Anthony Boyd Questions (1) why do I believe the authors of the MYDBTJ were martial artist at all, much less master martial artists? ---- As Ray said the authors were Military scholars, and advisors to the King. I have seen references to the authors as military scholars, advisors, as well as military leaders. I have not seen the title of master attached to them in any formal writing. So; it may incorrect to call them "master" , although I find it reasonable to believe they were Martial Artists. To compile such information with any type of understanding would require some familiarity with the subject, and it is also reasonable to believe the King would have chosen trusted military leaders (which would have no doubt been martial artist) to complete such a task. Question (2) Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim created the name Soo Bahk Do after finding the name Su Bak referenced in the MYDBTJ. There is no doubt that the Su Bak of ancient practitioners is not the same as Soo Bahk Do today. Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim was simply trying to connect the Moo Duk Kwan with Korean history (I.e. the Hwa Rang and the name Su Bak) however the translation of the MYDBTJ by Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim in 1957 did result in some of the material taught by the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan today. JC --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 21:54:25 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Been Out Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry I have missed so much, I have been doing a lot of personal training in preparation for my up coming test (The week long Ko Dan Ja Shim Sa) and although this is not my fist Ko Dan Ja experience it does not get any easier. I will be gone to California the 2nd week of January. Pray I survive! LOL I am sure I will learn a great deal. I do however miss getting to sit and read the DD as much as I have been able to lately. I will be checking in some over the next couple of weeks, the I will be off. Hope I don't miss to much. JC --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 20:22:32 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Belts again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "I a totally against anyone wearing the Solid-Red Belt other than a Supreme Grandmaster or Soke." MC Reply One of my TSD Masters once jokingly told me that the Korean's made the BB candidate (2nd/1st gup) a red belt almost as a subtle insult to the Japanese in return for the occupation.....hmmmm Seriously folks I see only three levels Dabbler Adept Student Lifelong student Kinda like the maiden-mother-crone As far as what belt they wear first do no harm, do what ye will MC --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 02:36:48 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: names and control Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net gm rudy said: being considered family is all good:) my reply: definitely. i've really enjoyed growing my martial arts family. it started with this list and that "other" one. i learned so much from both, and continue to learn from this list and more. i had considered quitting martial arts altogether after a bit of disillusionment way back when. it is my martial arts family that helped keep me going. gm rudy said: The "wall" as a tool is great for making sure the students keep a slight bend in the arm to prevent hyper extension my reply: the young folk have a really hard time with this, wanting to always hyperextend, over-reach not only with the arm but the whole body, etc. yes, the wall definitely helps with this and starts good habits. every now and then someone fusses and thinks its mean. its not like i told them to HIT the wall, for heaven's sake. lol. we like slow-mo work on the wall at first to get the old muscle memory going, too. then throw in a bit of ki, providing ones own resistance. the adults are surprised they start breaking a sweat just doing slow motion punching. gm rudy said: Amazing what you can get away with when you are old and they think you know it all:) my reply: they have to think i know it all first? bulgoks! (that's our three year old's curse word). guess i'll have to fake it til i make it. btw, did you have any trouble getting your moose started this morning? its getting rather cold down here. cant imagine what its like north of the border. take care, mel who's feeling rather Christmas spirited tonite after a wonderful weekend doing Christmas-y things. :) Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy _www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply _www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 08:02:31 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Response to Jeff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeff, I too grew up in the martial arts. My background has been CMA and KMA. On the one hand I have been derided by some because they felt I was too young to have done certain things. That being said, I met the requirements of my school, and the requirements were identical. AQfter I became Ee Dan they briefly went to trying to wear the poom belt for children, but it fell through because of pressure from the students. When we came up, we understood that child yudanja were not the same as adult yudanja. We were told we were all junior to all adults no matter what the adults' ranks were. Today, I think people are too keen on rank. On the one hand you have snide comments that reek of intellectual elitism and on the other you have those who just want money. I just spoke the other day to one of my first instructors, who also has been a practicing Zen Buddhist for the thirty years. He was kind enough to mention to me that the most important thing is just to do it. Associations, Federations, words, curriculum, and debates are all little more than a distraction to practice. I know that I may come under fire for this, but I remember seeing a school who in their handbook said Taekwondo is an action philosophy. If this is true, then what we need is more action. No two people will simultaneously be at the same spot in their training or on the path. Rather than criticize someone who is making a sincere effort, we should guide that person and help them to become better than ourselves. If we can help just one student become better than we are, then we have served the art, and done our job as teachers. This may be a naïve stance, and so be it. I think that the greatest contribution one can make is simply practice. Practicing for grandeur or trying to reinvent the wheel is somewhat a wasted exercise. Frank --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 05:07:16 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dobohk Love Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jeff, I come to love my dobohks so much that my karate moms have to get bold enough to remind me I'm still wearing one that has started to rip apart on the crease. I can never forget the night I was teaching class and threw a center punch and instead of my dobohk popping it riped from seam to cuff trim :-) One of the karate moms asked if they could take up a donation to get me a new uniform...I just smilled and said I guess it's time to start using the new one I have in the closet. My first TSD instructor said something that elder uncle Timmerman has said on this list. "Never go anywhere without a dobohk, never miss an opportunity to train." YIJD, MC --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:13:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Eric Mc Niffe To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:[ The_Dojang]--The splits Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello everyone, Hows it going? I'm looking for some help....... Now i know loads of people say,"You don't necessarily need to be able to do the splits to be able to kick high", and i know that you need active stretching to do that but i also feel if i could do the splits i could achieve this much quicker and easier. I've read Brad Appleton's "Stretching and Flexibility" and found it alot of help but the stretches he gave on "Working toward the splits" were in my opinion not very good(though some were excellent).I'm hoping someone can provide me with information on how to do the splits. Any thoughts would be gratefully appreciated, thanking you, Eric(5thkup) PS:Are those cheap Metal bar stretchers worth buying? --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Jeff Yeagley" To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:40:10 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Belt Colors & Rank Recognition Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Chambers wrote: "As the years rolled along, I have witnessed the use of every color belt known to both man and the Crayola Corporation. When martial arts schools ran out of the solid colors, they started to combine stripes and/or tip color of every combination. The only two belt colors that I have not seen are Pink and Grizzly-Gray!" In the early days of my training, my instructor would joke with students by telling them that if they quit, they would automatically be awarded the rank of pink belt! Someone in the school even dyed a white belt pink to keep around the dojang. If a student was slacking in class, my instructor would hold it up, and say "all you have to do is quit, and this will be yours." It never failed to bring the student back to a warrior focus. As far as Grizzly-Gray, my old, tattered black belt may qualify! "Some teachers change the belt colors of their students so often, that their old belts are still stiff and show the fold marks. Running a young student through a barrel of belts every few weeks, is used to generates greater income from testing and promotional fees, that I personally find distasteful!" While our program does include tips on the junior ranks belts, we do not charge for these promotions. They are used as a motivational tool to help the younger students see their progress, and to keep them focused. Tips are awarded in the classes based on etiquette, technical improvement, and consistent class performance. Our students average between five and six months between full belt promotions. Sincerely, Jeff Yeagley Chief Instructor Academy of Fighting Arts Business Phone: 816-525-5555 Email: jeff.yeagley@wetrainharder.com Web: http://www.wetrainharder.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 05:41:48 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: MYTBTJ -- Clarification? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....Yet you -continue- to claim that others are wrong or uninformed without directly addressing the issue at hand. Not very interesting to read, but rather telling on your part....." Ok. Lets get this cleared up before we go any farther. What exactly is your issue? Are you looking for information or are you taking exception to how "I" am representing information? a.) If you are looking for information, the information is already there in the book. Read the book. If you don't accept the information, nothing I can say will "make" you accept it. If "who cares" is a valid response, then there is nothing I can do to "make" you care, right? b.) If you are taking exception to how "I" am representing the information then I suggest you come out in the open and state that rather disparage the information itself. I find it very interesting that members of the Hapkido community will spend more time badgering each other about Korean oral traditions which cannot be substantiated in preference to discussing material written in black and white on a page that CAN be discussed. I find it interesting that people would rather give preference to Japanese-based traditions as absorbed into the Korean culture (which again are founded to a great degree on oral traditions) than give equal time to documented influences from China. What I am getting is that people would rather import Japanese sword and represent it as Kumdo than actually study the older material in the MYTBTJ. What I am getting is that people would rather practice Japanese and Okinawan staff than investigate the staff, cudgeol and stick in the MYTBTJ. I am getting that people would rather "borrow", say, naginata material from Japan than study the Wol-do and Hyup-do material in the MYTBTJ. In short what I am getting is that people would rather pursue what they would LIKE KMA to be for them than apply themselves to study what KMA actually is. Let me say again, that if this is the pervasive thought on this board, I DO NOT have a problem with it and am not here to persuade otherwise. I will continue to publish my findings on my website and furnish whatever I can for those who are interested and noone needs to read it if they truely "don't care". Lifes' too damn short, yes? FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 05:53:30 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Youth players Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear List, There is (and will continue to be) tons of threads on this topic in the archives....After much research, comparison, and self evaluation, I have come to the conclussion that my Kwan will have Dan rank (adult) and Poom rank (youth 15-). I also agree that the few 16 y/o's that are mature enough to hold adult dan rank are far and few between, but think about it less than 10% of new students regardless of cirriculum and necessary time in rank actually make it to Cho Dan so someone that chose martial arts regularly two or more nights a week during high school is certainly committed, focused and self disciplined. Like others my Poom cirricula is designed to teach what Itosu and Funakoshi Senseis hoped to accomplish with similar aged children; Courage in the mind, strength in the body and honesty in the heart (paraphrasing Rhee, Yoon Goo). This is a valuable service and much needed. For myslef, I had strong mentors/male role models from age 7-12 in the Boys and Girls Club football, baseball and basketball coaches that gave of their time and wisdom. Then I got in most of my wild oats trouble from age 13 to 19. I can remember reading Judo for Boys and Bruce Tegner's Karate Books from age 8 on and never actually joining a martial arts school. Had I had a strong caring Sensei/Sabom from age 8-18, I would have been not only a 19 y/o 2nd Dan, I'd have been in less trouble during those impressionable teenage years. I take my personal role with youth very seriously. Almost every parent that brings in their child to our school tells me that their child NEEDS karate/disciple/mentoring/a father figure. Of 20 youth over half have obvious needs for martial arts benefits: 13 y/o female - single mother since birth 11 y/o female - single mother (alcoholic father) 8 y/o female - single mother 11 y/o male - remarried parents when age 6 11 y/o male - parents seperated 6 y/o male - single mother since birth 8 y/o male - diagnosed A.D.D. with 140 IQ 6 y/o male - diagnosed A.D.D. with IQ 140+ 10 y/o male - A.D.D. 7 y/o female - A.D.D. These youth spend two days a week minimum with similar aged youth from two parent families that are friends, senior in rank, older, and peer models in addition to my constant "fatherly/sabom" eye. I can tell you the alternative is to ride a bicycle up to the neighborhood park unsupervised, and watch their older peer models experiment with sex, drugs and gang violence until they deam themselves old enough to try those activities. Three of the above kids are also my Project Action Foundation scholars and have gone from "C" average students to A/B every report card. Besides, by working with youth I get to learn about everything from Yugio to Eminem. Plus the pre-teens came up with a cool nickname. Stepping off soapbox, MC --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 06:44:13 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Frankovich To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Academic Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A question for the group... If you were creating an academic martia larts program, what would you include as requirements for an Associate's degree and a Bachelor's degree? Thanks, Rob __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest