Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:22:33 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #536 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. 4 year degree (Charles Richards) 2. Re: HDGD Sword Thrusts (Bruce Sims) 3. Moose (Rudy Timmerman) 4. South (Rudy Timmerman) 5. Re: Re: names and numbers .......... (Jeremy Anderson) 6. Hi (Introduction) (Jay O'Connor) 7. Response to Gm DeAlba (Frank Clay) 8. hi (steven rivera) 9. Re: Dodge? (Bruce Sims) 10. Re: Response to Gm DeAlba (Jay O'Connor) 11. Re: hi (Jay O'Connor) 12. Re: Wool seems to be in the eye of the beholder..... (Bruce Sims) 13. Re: Re: Dodge? (Ray Terry) 14. Hwang Kee Rank (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 15. HC Hwang seminars (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 16. Reform Measures on Taekwondo to Come in February (Ray Terry) 17. RE: Re: Academic Martial Arts (Kip McCormick) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:39:12 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 4 year degree Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "A question for the group... If you were creating an academic martia larts program, what would you include as requirements for an Associate's degree and a Bachelor's degree?" MC Reply Rob, Try Dr. Jerry Beasely in Radford College, Christiansburg, VA....I believe such a program exists...I believe the KKW also issues a diploma..... FWIW, I would see a mixture of modern sports medicine, theropy and training. Labs to include Yoga, Tai Chi and Classical Ballet. Early childhood education classes. Some physcology to help understand the Id/ego for all ages, and some language and culture classes. Oh yeah, I forgot 4 years of martial arts classes. The core cirricula of a business major. Including public speaking, marketting and hands on telephone skills. That would be a start. MC --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:35:02 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: HDGD Sword Thrusts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Anthony: Have you noticed how frequently people interpret the thrusting in the BON KUK GUM BUP to invariably be with a blade-edge-up position? It seems as though almost every thrust with the blade is considered to be done with an inverted blade. How do the HDGD people deal with their thrusting? Is the edge always up? How do they determine which way the edge is to face? How would they express that verbally to someone else? What cues do they take from the BON KUK GUM BUP that tell them which way the sword edge faces. I have my thoughts and will share them, but would like to hear your in-put first. Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:09:58 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Moose Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mel writes: > did you have any trouble getting your moose started this morning? its > getting rather cold down here. cant imagine what its like north of the > border. > No problems getting it started, just took forever to dig out of the snow. Man, getting too old for this shoveling lol. BTW, it is Rudy:) Thanks for including me in your family too MC:) I am proud to be an uncle to Nico. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:18:29 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] South Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jere writes: > Master Timmerman is way down there in the warm and tropical south part > of > Canada. :) Hello Jere: I know you are probably having a much harder time to start YOUR moose, but if this is South where I live, someone forgot to tell the weather man:) South anywhere is beginning to look real good to me right about now. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:38:07 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Anderson Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: names and numbers .......... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, Before we get into the meat of this: if you're looking for a universal physical terminology, you might want to look into ballet and/or ballroom choreography. I know there are several different ways to write down choreography in a universal language describing how each body part is positioned. That might be a good place to start, or at least get some ideas on a direction to go. --- Bruce Sims wrote: > Dear Jeremy: > > "......Suppose you or someone else puts a whole lot of > effort into creating a universal hapkido terminology. > Excellent. Then what makes that > terminology better than all the other bazillion > terminologies out there? > And more importantly, how is someone trying to > propogate a universal terminology any less ego-bound > then everyone else being unwilling to accept it? Why > not just adopt and teach the most popular terminology, > while encouraging others to do the same, instead? > > The big problem isn't whether the terminology is > universally accepted or not. Martial arts are > physical skills. Trying to talk about them will > only get you so far, no matter what terminology you > adopt......." > > Before you understand what is going on here you are > probably going to have to do a couple of things. > > 1.) You are going to need to drop the idea of this > being a single persons' effort. I am not advocating > this as something that one person does and asks > everyone else to accept. I'm asking that Hapkido > people participate in a joint and open-ended effort to > make discussing what they do and how they do it > understandable to the widest possible audience. I believe you already addressed this in another post, but for clarification's sake: The "we" that's coming up with this terminology is those participating on this list, correct? > 2.) You are going to have to let go of people being > MADE to use this language. Use is as voluntary as the > project itself. Fair enough, if that's the thought that I'm holding. But it's not what I'm thinking, and not, I believe, what I wrote. > 3.) You are going to have to open you view of the > Hapkido arts. See, while we can talk about Ji's > tradition, or Myungs' tradition, there are folks > reading this right now that have garnered a little bit > of this and a littlebit of that. They would like to > particiapte in the Hapkido community but they don't > know how and not having a common vernacular just makes > it harder for them. What *is* my view of the Hapkido arts? I can tell you I have no illusions as to the fractured nature of the community. I just don't see creating a new terminology as a way to fix the problem, if problem it is. Personally, I've trained regularly in a karate program, four different taekwondo programs, three different judo programs, a hapkido program, and a weaponry program with almost as many different sets of terminology (I've moved around a lot). In addition, I've attended seminars in multiple other martial arts, often taught by people who couldn't speak English. In each case, there was an initial period of confusion as I learned the new set of terminology, but that transition period was short. Once I learned an "outer vertical kick" was the exact same as an "in-to-out crescent kick" was the same as "some Korean term I can't pronounce," I was fine. Now, this example may be different from the problem you're trying to fix in the hapkido community. I'm just using it to illustrate why I believe terminology isn't the real issue. It's not terminology that's creating the splits and maintaining them within the hapkido community. Heck, if I can attend seminars taught by non-English speakers when I speak only English, and get along and learn just fine, then I feel pretty safe in saying terminology isn't the REAL issue. The real issue -- and I think you've touched on this in other posts -- is ego. Personally, I don't see how setting up another terminology is going to address that problem. For those who don't have inflated egos, chances are they are already open to conversation *without* the new terminology. They are comparing notes and terminology and talking to each other. They are probably defining their terms as they go and asking questions when they don't understand what the other is saying. Chances are they are already on the mat with you, describing physically what they mean when they say "off-balancing." For those with inflated egos, then creating a new terminology will just give them something else to push their egos against, creating more splits and conflict. For those just too intimidated and feeling outside the conversation because they speak a different terminology, either way they're going to have to learn another terminology (whether someone else's proprietary school lingo *or* a universal hapkido terminology) in order to start participating. Either way the issue is the same: they have to learn a new terminology. Maybe a universal terminology is good in other ways, though. > Now if you will do these three things, you will answer > your own question because THIS is how such a > terminology would be better. Pretend I'm stupid and explain it to me. How would such a universal terminology be better? *If* *everyone* adopted it, then I could certainly see benefits. But realistically, I don't see a way of getting there from here. Are there any benefits for creating another set of non-universal terminology? If your goal is simply to establish a common terminology for this list, I think that's a great idea (though, since I'm a kinesthetic and visual learner, my participation, unfortunately, will be minimal). It would certainly ease conversation in this venue. Especially if there's an on-line dictionary somewhere for people to look at. Including pictures for those of us who need them so we don't feel marginalized. If it's for trying to heal the wounds in the hapkido community and make it more unified like the judo community (the unity of which his *highly* debatable despite having a "unified terminology" -- a debatable thought in it's own right), I'd question the project's motives and utility, and suspect your efforts are doomed to fail. Jeremy Anderson. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:15:37 -0700 From: "Jay O'Connor" To: TheDojang Subject: [The_Dojang] Hi (Introduction) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, I just joined this list. Most lists I'm on usually like an introduction post from newbies so... My name is Jay O'Connor and I've been taking Tae Kwon Do classes for about 5 months; I'm 35 years old. Two of my children (Daniel-12 and Jessica-10) have been doing it a few months longer than me and really enjoy it. We are in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Our school focus on self-defense and I guess the 'fighting' aspect of the martial art, although we do some Olympic-style sparring. I joined the list to learn more about TKD itself and to learn more about the wider community than just my school. Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:37:01 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Response to Gm DeAlba Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sir, I would like to take the credit, but that teaching comes from another. I recently spoke with that Master by phone and in that conversation I noted that it is funny how we will hear something in training but it will not register until later. Then you realize the apparent simplicity of the teaching hides the meaning from the student. Its not the first time that out of the blue I was hit with "ah! That's what he meant!" I think that it will not be the last either. Thank you again. Frank --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "steven rivera" To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:01:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] hi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I am new to this. My name is Steve and I am a hapkido student. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:59:53 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dodge? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok. Let me know what it is that I am "dodging". We are talking about the MYTBTJ and I am talking about the MYTBTJ. We are talking about the people who wrote or organized the MYTBTJ, and I am talking about the people who wrote or organized the MYTBTJ. A question came up about the relationship of Su Bahk to the MYTBTJ and I responded to the relationship between Su Bahk and the MYTBTJ. BTW: Ray you may want to advise everyone about the content of what you deleted. It was not a rant, and you know it wasn't a rant. It was a short, objective and even-handed response to thoughts. Now I DO have a solution for you editing or censoring my responses. What I can do is co-publish my responses on another net so that people can appreciate what I am actually saying without having it filtered by you. I think people would find that my "attitude" is not as bad as you represent it were it not for your deleting key responses at the most inopportune point of a dialogue. How do I know? Because you send me a note saying that my "content is inappropriate". Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:15:14 -0700 From: "Jay O'Connor" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Response to Gm DeAlba Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Frank Clay wrote: > I noted > that it is funny how we will hear something in training but it will not > register until later. Then you realize the apparent simplicity of the > teaching hides the meaning from the student. > Its not the first time that out of the blue I was hit with "ah! That's what > he meant!" I think that it will not be the last either. I once explained that phenomenom to my teacher in terms of the joke "He laughs at every joke three times; once when it's told, once when it's explained to him, and once when he finally gets it". I'm often like that :) Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:27:52 -0700 From: "Jay O'Connor" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] hi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net steven rivera wrote: > Hi all, I am new to this. My name is Steve and I am a hapkido student. Hi, Steve...I think I've been here about an hour longer than you :) Welcome Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:16:22 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Wool seems to be in the eye of the beholder..... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "......Actually, things appear to be exactly opposite the way you're trying to present them. I'd say the vast majority of KMA's are carrying on what's been passed on to them by their seniors. YOU, however, seem to be implying that everyone else has the wool pulled over their eyes and you somehow have a more legitimate take on what REALLY encapsulates Korean Martial Tradition......." OK. I'll bite. Lets look at what you just said. Other people are carrying what their seniors passed to them. Fine. I'm doing what MY seniors have passed to me. Whats the problem? I have not implied anything about "wool being pulled over peoples eyes." All I have ever advocated is a fair representation of Korean martial arts and a fair treatment for all of the influences that have shaped it. You on the other hand seem to enjoy spinning everything I say to produce some result that is not intended. Whats the problem? I am NOT now, nor have I said in the past that my take on things is somehow "more legimate". If anything I draw the line at simply saying that my take is at least AS legit as anyone elses. Whats the problem? The only position that I have pushed from day one is that if there is room for a lot of the stuff I have seen passed around on these nets there is room for my position as well. The only issue that I see regarding my representing what I believe is that there are folks who have a narrowly defined view of what they do and why they do it. What makes this particularly unfortunate is that while they continue with this narrow view they take exception to other people hold THEIR views. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Dodge? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 13:30:59 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > BTW: Ray you may want to advise everyone about the > content of what you deleted. It was not a rant, and > you know it wasn't a rant. It was a short, objective > and even-handed response to thoughts. > [more rant and rave snipped] We are now starting to see the problem, Bruce. You don't actually read the posts. You simply write something, anything, that strikes your fancy without caring how it will be viewed by others or how it fits into the discussion. If you had read your own post you would have seen your rants and raves in issue 534 which I simply deleted in my response in issue 535 so as to save others the bandwidth of having to reread it. !!! So yes, please, go over to those 'other nets' if you must continue to needlessly attack, rant and rave. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:47:44 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwang Kee Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have never seen any legitimate writing that claimed Hwang Kee Kwan Jang a 10th Dan I only have seen him referred to as Grandmaster or Kwan Jang Nim. JC --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:56:31 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] HC Hwang seminars Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "does HC Hwang Kwan Jang Nim give seminars out side the Moo Duk Kwan" The only time I know of is special events. At the up coming 60th anniversary in October. There will be seminars open to anyone that has been influenced by the Moo Duk Kwan. I have seen people that are wanting to join the Moo Duk Kwan attend seminars but that is it as far as I no. He is however the real deal. 50 plus year in training. his instructor was Hwang Kee himself. and his ability is fantastic. Even at his age he can do things few 18 year old would even try. Both mentally, physically, and spiritually he is a great example of what a Martial artist should be. IMHO JC --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:12:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Reform Measures on Taekwondo to Come in February Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reform Measures on Taekwondo to Come in February The Korea Times By Cho Jin-seo Staff Reporter 12-13-2004 16:57 The World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) on Monday announced that its reform committee will submit a set of recommendations in February on the reform of the WTF organization. Headed by WTF vice president and IOC member Nat Indrapana of Thailand, the 11-member committee had its first meeting in Seoul last week with the participation of 30 presenters from WTF member countries. "The recommendations were scheduled to be submitted in January, but the committee postponed it to February," a WTF official said on the condition of anonymity. "The meeting was wrapped up successfully, and the members were very satisfied with the results." Since last summer's Athens Olympics, the WTF has been seeking ways to make the Korean-originated martial art more interesting and action-packed. WTF president Choue Chung-won has said he would consider allowing the use of punches in a series of news conferences since September. He has also insisted that the WTF should transform itself into a more global and transparent organization. "The Reform Committee is completely separated from the WTF's head office," the official said. "The people of the WTF are not even allowed to attend the meetings. The committee will draw up independent opinions in February." The revision is expected to be made after the WTF's general assembly in April, where Choue aims to be reelected as president. --__--__-- Message: 17 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Academic Martial Arts Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:07:58 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rob- Yong In University in Korea has a dynamic program. I trained with a lot of their guys when I lived there and it was a blast. Good people and a great program. Go to their website at: http://www.yongin.ac.kr/yihome/eng/academic/ma.html Best of luck. Kip >From: Robert Frankovich >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Academic Martial Arts >Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 06:44:13 -0800 (PST) > >A question for the group... >If you were creating an academic martia larts program, >what would you include as requirements for an >Associate's degree and a Bachelor's degree? > >Thanks, >Rob > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. >http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest