Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:52:52 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #540 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Little question (aristide) 2. Ray Terry on Red Belt (George Peters) 3. Holding up your pants (Peter "Nighthawk" Lampasona) 4. snow memories (Charles Richards) 5. Re: Mat Time (Bruce Sims) 6. Re: Belt Colors (Bert Edens) 7. Re: Red Belts (Bert Edens) 8. Martial Arts Masters World Federation Inc (john.a.mcintosh@bt.com) 9. 3 Areas Selected as Candidates for Taekwondo Park (Ray Terry) 10. Re: Ray Terry on Red Belt (Ray Terry) 11. Re: Re: Belt Colors (Jay O'Connor) 12. RE: belt colors (J R Hilland) 13. Re: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido (Bruce Sims) 14. RE: belt colors (J R Hilland) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "aristide" To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:49:46 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Little question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello! It is quite some time, now, I read your lines on the DD and I find them very interesting and informative. But, first let me introduce myself. I am Aristide, a French national of 42 years old, living in Singapore for 5 years now and practicing Taekwondo (WTF) for 2 years (I am a humble red tip). My 2 daughters (12 and 7) as well as my 2 sons (11 and 8) also practice this wonderful martial art and we all enjoy it so much! I just regret I started so late and I am so happy my kids had this opportunity to start so soon. My instructor is a fantastic person, very passionate and so skillful not only with the art itself (He is a 6th Dan) but also in teaching either to kids or to adults. Now, at 42, I set up my own objective with this new passion that is Taekwondo: I want to participate to my first Tournament (I can’t before getting my red belt) and, one day, I want to win one! Anyone has some tips to achieve this goal (type of training, specific drills, strategies…)? My instructor is aware about my objective and is definitely ready to help me as he believes I can make it but I am asking to the DD in order to then discuss with him about any suggestions or advices you could kindly make to me (and maybe to some other readers) Thanking you in advance for your precious and much appreciated help, Aristide --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 01:23:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ray Terry on Red Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, I must agree with JC wholeheartedly in that KJN Hwang Kee meant for the belts to represent the seasons. I have never heard the one about danger. I don't argue that someone may have said this, I simply do not have any info on Hwang Kee incorporating this into the meaning of the belt colors. What is taught in the org I belong to is almost 100% the same as Master Cox's. Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Peter \"Nighthawk\" Lampasona" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Holding up your pants Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 01:49:23 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Why do I feel like I'm starting trouble every time I have something I feel I need to add here? I don't believe I could tie an old belt of mine right now if I tried. I gained a great deal in my time in dojangs when I was younger. But since I enrolled in college I moved around way too much to stay in a specific dojang. For over two years now all my practice has been with people of different skill levels and different schools in an unofficial sparring club where we train together for several hours each week and then, at the end of the week, compete in a high contact competition in which the majority of strikes, throws, and grappling moves that we know of from the sum of our experience are allowed, as well as many things that get made up on the spot to adapt to new situations. Coupled with that, all my academic study of the martial arts has come from a combination of the library and web fantastic web communities like this one. The one thing I can tell you for certain is I feel I've learned a hell of a lot more about the martial arts this way than I ever did as a conventional student. I actually think these aspects are things that dojangs can benefit their students, and by extension themselves, by adapting. I think the official ranking system can intimidate novice level students away from any kind of the necessary improvisation that comes with applying martial arts techniques and make them feel like they have to earn a rank before they can start making their techniques work. I also think that there should be more encouragement for independent learning on the academic side of the martial arts. The times are changing and I think, in the culture that we live in, that a hands-on classroom might just be more effective than a traditional dojang environment. I also think I'm going to get eaten alive for posting this. But I guess that's the risk of abnormal discourse. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 05:46:27 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] snow memories Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "Due to an unfortunate misalignment of the universe while I was very young, I received far more than my share of snowy driveways, steps, and walkways. Far, far more than my share. As a result, I may have to stay in Korea, where I rarely see accumulated snow, until global warming makes my homeland a grassy wonderland... I'm gearing up for my eighth "Concrete Christmas" and I still feel no longing for the white kind!" MC Reply, Amen Anthony! I remember 14" of snow overnight, shovelling driveways and sidewalks so many times that there would be a 3' high drift between the sidewalk and the curb. Pushing cars up the hills in the subdivision for a crisp new $1 bill to split amoung 10 or 15 kids....we'd push all morning as people got up to make it to work by 8am just like a normal day (no late openings like here in the south) and maybe we'd make enough for hot chocolate at the local 7 eleven. Then we would put several layers of clothes on and the classic 1970's "survival parka" with the fury hood fringe that was warm, but impossible to see out of...so we could play tackle football in the snow. It takes some real focus to catch a sopping wet football in a pair of nylon mittens :-)...finally the snow plows/sand trucks would make it from the highways to the collector streets and we'd have gray/black slush piled up that would take weeks to melt.....then when I became a teenager I got to learn about putting snow chains on a car and then jacking the car up at the highway and crawling around on the ground to take them off..... 1989 life moved me to Sunny South Carolina and I declared I would never move back north of the MD line :-) I got a lot of respect for elder uncle Timmerman and the lake wading crew, but I'll take a dip in lake Allatoona in the middle of the summer to cool off over Canadian lake wading in the winter anyday :-) Yall train hard now hear... MC --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 05:55:33 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mat Time Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jack: Caught your comment on the end of the last DD issue and wanted to qualify something as I see it. I agree that at most events I have been to there is far too much kibbutz-ing by upper ranks. This includes collecting on the edges of mats, standing to oneside and conversing about who-knows-what, or even stepping onto the mat to make contributions or interact with students while the class leader is at work. Yes, I agree with what you said. These folks need to get onto the mat. Now, having said that let me offer one qualifier. Not all of the people who stand on the edge of the mat are discussing things such as the weather, higher cost of groceries, or the latest offerings from Detroit. In the absence of responsible leadership, and a cohesive Hapkido community, sometimes networking with each other on the edge of the mat is about as close as some people will get to the mentoring and career-development that they need. Along with you I find this a noisome distraction (as are the person with the camera, cell-phones, and children whose needs pull participants off the mat repeatedly). On the other hand, though, perhaps networking within the atmosphere of the MA seminar is preferable to the sorts of behaviors one might find in a bar afterwards, yes? FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:49:40 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Belt Colors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At 05:03 12/15/04, you wrote: >My sobomnim explained that it was sort of a symbolized represntation of >experience in that everyone started with white belts but the more you >trained (especially when training was outside), the dirtier your belt >got. The darkness of a belt, therefore, would roughly indicate >experience. The belt colors, going from white to black as you can >experience, sorta formalize that process > >Take care, >Jay Greetings... In addition to the above, I've also heard the colors became more popular due to the Western desire for "instant gratification", so to speak... I guess people want that tangible reward that they are doing well and progressing... Even starting as an adult, I know I enjoyed the changes in belt color... Having just tested for 2nd dan in August (yeah, I'm still a newbie :)), I knew the only thing the promotion would get me is another gold stripe and 3 new patterns to learn... So waiting for several months for results wasn't a big deal... But it took many several years to reach that frame of mind... **bows** - Bert Edens, II Dan TKD Springdale, Arkansas --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:54:33 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Red Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At 05:03 12/15/04, you wrote: >Anyway Red = Blood, life, energy (or as Master Lee said Yang Energy). >The Red belt should be at their physical peak, but without the serenety >of the black/midnight calmness. And yes Master Terry is correct they >can be dangerous. Try Center Referee for two teen male Red Belts in >peak physical condition >YIJD >MC Greetings, sir... Having done the above, I would be willing to bet that it doesn't get much better with teen 1st dans either... :-) Although that may be as much a product of testosterone as it is of rank... :-) **bows** - Bert Edens, II Dan TKD Springdale, Arkansas --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:25:37 -0000 From: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Arts Masters World Federation Inc Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear List, moving out of lurk mode for a short while to ask a couple of questions that popped into my mind recently. While idly surfing the net (at work hanging on the phone listening to jingly jangly music) I came across the "Martial Arts Masters World Federation Inc" at www.mamwf.com. This site seemed to have the sole purpose of separating the gullible from their money. After viewing the founders of some of the "New Arts" e.g.; a suspiciously young looking 10th Dan and some guy who had a string of titles in front of his name (doctor/professor/monk/etc) I was wondering if anyone took this sort of thing seriously. Are these people deranged and would you automatically consign them to the martial art dustbin, or would you give them the benefit of the doubt until they had enough rope to hang themselves? Enquiring minds (OK mine) want to know. Charles Richards wrote in Vol 11 #534 "I can remember reading Judo for Boys and Bruce Tegner's Karate Books from age 8 on and never actually joining a martial arts school." I had some of the Bruce Tegner books, back in the days when I was 15 years old and there weren't a lot of martial art books available in Scotland (circa 1975). I must admit that they helped me, they opened my mind to different martial arts and techniques. At the time I was Shotokan Karate student, and being young, that was the greatest martial art ever, nothing could touch it. After reading some of those books, particularly the Jukado one (still have a copy of that, found it in my Mother's attic last year), I became more interested in rounding out my martial art education. The question is - have you ever found inspiration, techniques, concepts, whatever from these sort of cheap books, and if so, did it help or hinder you in the long/short term? Thanks for reading John. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:21:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] 3 Areas Selected as Candidates for Taekwondo Park Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 3 Areas Selected as Candidates for Taekwondo Park By Cho Jin-seo The Korea Times Staff Reporter 12-15-2004 19:39 The Ministry of Culture and Tourism announced on Tuesday that Chunchon, Muju and Kyongju are the final candidates for the Taekwondo Park site. The project includes construction of a gymnasium, training facilities, a shopping mall and a taekwondo hall of fame, and is planned for completion by 2013. Three cities and 14 counties have joined the bidding for the 164.4 billion-won project, and a 19-member special committee of the ministry has evaluated them over 76 categories. "Those three areas had the best scores in the first phase of the selecting process," the ministry's official Ban Byung-ho said. "The final selection will be made within this month." Chunchon is a lakeside city in northern Kangwon Province, and Muju County is located in mountainous area of North Cholla Province. Kyongju, the capital of ancient Shilla kingdom, has been served as one of the main tourism sites of South Korea. The final candidates will go through on-site inspections and presentations this month. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ray Terry on Red Belt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:26:03 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I must agree with JC wholeheartedly in that KJN Hwang Kee meant for the > belts to represent the seasons. I have never heard the one about danger. I > don't argue that someone may have said this, I simply do not have any info > on Hwang Kee incorporating this into the meaning of the belt colors. What is > taught in the org I belong to is almost 100% the same as Master Cox's. Could very well be. I was wrong one other time... :) I was simply repeating the meaning of the red belt that came from one of my instructors, who claimed to get it directly from Hwang Kee during his time at the MDK's railroad dojang. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:47:37 -0700 From: "Jay O'Connor" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Belt Colors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bert Edens wrote: > At 05:03 12/15/04, you wrote: > >> My sobomnim explained that it was sort of a symbolized represntation >> of experience in that everyone started with white belts but the more >> you trained (especially when training was outside), the dirtier your >> belt got. The darkness of a belt, therefore, would roughly indicate >> experience. The belt colors, going from white to black as you can >> experience, sorta formalize that process >> >> Take care, >> Jay > > > Greetings... > In addition to the above, I've also heard the colors became more > popular due to the Western desire for "instant gratification", so to > speak... I guess people want that tangible reward that they are doing > well and progressing... Even starting as an adult, I know I enjoyed the > changes in belt color... Having just tested for 2nd dan in August (yeah, > I'm still a newbie :)), I knew the only thing the promotion would get me > is another gold stripe and 3 new patterns to learn... So waiting for > several months for results wasn't a big deal... But it took many several > years to reach that frame of mind... I first started at the age of 35 (about 5mos ago) and I admit that I don't care too much about belts, at least for myself. To me, every class, every day, every week, I want to be better than I was the [time] before. Belts sorta represent mileage signs along the path to kinda show how far I've gone, but not as goals in themselves; the destination is inside me. As a result, I currently know stuff more advanced than I need for my next belt, but I don't say that with self-pride either. I simply work hard, study, listen to my sabommin, practice, and try to improve. The belts will come. Take care, Jay * all this from the perspective of someone who has only actually gained one belt :) --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:34:52 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: belt colors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You are correct. I am aware of the origins of the gup/dan method from the kyu/dan system. I wrote belt system, and I should have typed belt colors as that is what I was talking about. <<>> --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:41:55 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "..... "We as members, train our spirits and bodies according to a strict Code. We as members are united in mutual friendship. We as members, comply with regulations and obey instructors." The kun, or oath, of the Yon Mu Kwan is intended to foster an atmosphere in which the purposes of the kwan may be pursued for the benefit of the individual and their community. The institution of the "kwan" is reflected in the traditional educational system of Korean history. Incorrectly translated as "style" by some sources and "gym" by other sources, the traditional kwan may or may not be related to martial arts. Rather a kwan is a title given to a group of people who share a particular purpose or goal and agree on the venue or activity for accomplishing that goal. The Yon Mu Kwan, proceeding from the martial training experience of GM Kwang Sik Myung, was instituted to protect the finest Korean martial traditions through regular and continuous examination of those traditions. Organized around the Mu-Do of the Hapkido arts, the Hapkido of the Yon Mu Kwan (i.e. "place of martial striving") seeks to delve ever deeper into the martial science and traditions of the Korean culture. As the name indicates, the group that meets under this banner seeks to ever refine these arts and traditions by repeated polishing and investigation. Just as the Dochang Kun identifies the atmosphere in which kwan members work, the Four Endeavors------ Development, Research, Integrity and Service ----- reflect the areas through which kwan members focus their energy to produce a greater good for each other and their community. Development: By agreeing to change, and to greet that change in an organized and fearless manner, a kwan member agrees to do more than simply take circumstances as they are presented. Instead a kwan member seeks to face down his concerns regarding the process of change, to agree that all things are temporary and to encourage change for the benefit of himself, fellow kwan members and his community. Research: Change merely for its own sake or for novelty rarely serves the best interests of the community. For this reason, change needs to be the result of intelligent and thoughtful consideration. An examination of varied views, the consideration of consequences, the integrity of existing conditions and the benefits of introducing new conditions all must be processed. Integrity: The act of translating development and research into action requires that a person identify their position in this act. Neither the growth of the community, changes in its policies or institutions, or influences on its members can be done without a direction. This direction cannot be determined without knowing where individuals are positioned relative to the issues in question. It is the responsibility of the kwan member to make his position known, to stand-by that position and to accept accountability for that position. It is fundamental to the motives of kwan members that they uniformly express their beliefs through their actions, and that their actions proceed directly from their beliefs. Service: The kwan and its members form a symbiotic relationship in which members are supported and coordinated through the kwan and the kwan is respected, supported and promoted through its members. However, the ultimate purpose of the kwan is to produce a vibrant and vital community in which each person is afforded ample opportunity to identify the best part of themselves and to come out of the best part of themselves. In this way, the community, which is the sum of its members also comes out of the best part of itself. Consistent with the kwans’ heritage, the colors of red ("courage"), white ("virtue") and blue ("fidelity") identify the ideals of the kwan member. The original Hapkido symbol, with its attendant Korean Han-gul characters speaks, in the lesser manner, to the use of Hapkido in developing ones character and accomplishing ones’ mission. In the larger context, the entire symbol seen in the kwan patch speaks to the promotion of balance and harmony by reconciling opposing influences......" Best Wishes, www.midwesthapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:46:38 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: belt colors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think we will file that one under mudo mythology. The old white ones never turn yellow, green, blue, red or black. About every 10 years I buy a new belt as the old one that started as dark black, turns gray and white. I wash my belt often as it gets very sweaty and I remember in 1975, one of the new white belts had just come from class after washing her dobok. It was a traditional white dobok that she washed with her blue jeans. I am colored blind, so I only saw a light gray. But all the other students said that entire dobok was a lavender color. I can't remember if she bleached it out or bought a new one. Of course any one can make up what the colors represent and often do. I do not teach what the colors represent, being colored blind - they are only a belt that keeps the top from coming open and my wife has to get the belts from the rack for me when we have a belt test at the dojang. <<>> --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest