Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:16:51 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #541 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Ray Terry on Red Belt (Christopher Spiller) 2. Re: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido (Ray Terry) 3. washing the belt (David Weller) 4. Re: washing the belt (Jay O'Connor) 5. RE: belt colors (Howard Spivey) 6. Re: Distraction (Beungood8@aol.com) 7. Re: OFF: Snow Stories... (Bert Edens) 8. RE: belts, ranks, etc. (Howard Spivey) 9. Re: Snow Memories (tim walker) 10. Seeing Red--Belts that is! (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 11. Non Dojang Training (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 12. Re: RE: belt colors (jakskru@sbcglobal.net) 13. belt washing (Ray Terry) 14. MC Post (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 15. Women in TSD (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 16. Ray was wrong (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 17. RE: Re: Mat Time (Kip McCormick) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:22:06 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ray Terry on Red Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>>Good Sir, I must agree with JC wholeheartedly in that KJN Hwang Kee meant for the belts to represent the seasons. I have never heard the one about danger. I don't argue that someone may have said this, I simply do not have any info on Hwang Kee incorporating this into the meaning of the belt colors. What is taught in the org I belong to is almost 100% the same as Master Cox's. Respectfully, George<<< FWIW, the only place I have seen red belt referred to as signifying danger has been the various editions of Gen. Choi, Hong Hi's encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do (although his 1968 edition doesn't have it because there was no red belt at the time, just white, blue, brown and black). In the 1972 and later editions the meaning of the red belt is listed as: "Signifies danger, cautioning the student to exercise control and warning the opponent to stay away." Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 11:41:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I thought that kwan was similar to, or same as, the Japanese kan. Both literally meaning house, palace, mansion, library or large building. ??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: David Weller Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:43:26 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] washing the belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Hilland wrote: On Dec 15, 2004, at 11:52 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > I wash my belt often as it gets very sweaty I was told early on to never wash my belt. Is this common in other schools/styles? sign me, Kurious in Kansas dave weller --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:56:01 -0700 From: "Jay O'Connor" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] washing the belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net David Weller wrote: > Master Hilland wrote: > On Dec 15, 2004, at 11:52 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net > wrote: > >> I wash my belt often as it gets very sweaty > > > I was told early on to never wash my belt. Is this common in other > schools/styles? We don't wash our belts as they tend to start unravelling. I didn't know this at first and my white belt almost didn't make it through my time in it Take care, Jay --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:00:48 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: belt colors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "> My sobomnim explained that it was sort of a symbolized represntation of > experience in that everyone started with white belts but the more you > trained (especially when training was outside), the dirtier your belt got. > The darkness of a belt, therefore, would roughly indicate experience. The > belt colors, going from white to black as you can experience, sorta > formalize that process Yes, this story is one of those great martial arts myths that won't seem to die off. A 'fun' story, but most likely not factual." hard to imagine that it could be true. after all, consider that across most systems, there are yellow, green, purple, blue, red and brown belts... one could imagine a belt going from white to black with wear, but to go thru all of those intermediate colors on the way? it just doesn't seem likely. a similar belief i've heard over the years is that a black belt will eventually revert to white with enough mat time... now to me that seems much more plausible. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:13:13 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Distraction Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 12/15/2004 2:17:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: . Along with you I find this a noisome distraction (as are the person with the camera, cell-phones, and children whose needs pull participants off the mat repeatedly). On the other hand, though, perhaps networking within the atmosphere of the MA seminar is preferable to the sorts of behaviors one might find in a bar afterwards, yes? FWIW. I think it's subject that doesn't really merit too much importance. Everyone from all over depending on where they come from are going to use words and meanings to name things differently. Who cares what this is called? I call one thing differently than you and from someone else. What it's called is not important as getting out and grabbing someone and learning how to0 move in real time. FWIW Jack --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:14:22 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: OFF: Snow Stories... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At 11:52 12/15/04, you wrote: >I remember 14" of snow overnight, shovelling driveways and sidewalks so >many times that there would be a 3' high drift between the sidewalk and >the curb. Pushing cars up the hills in the subdivision for a crisp new Greetings, all... My favorite snow story is from a time when I lived in the mountains of Colorado (Woodland Park, for anyone familiar with it)... We woke up one morning and couldn't find our Volkswagen Beetle... Now that's snow... :) **bows** - Bert Edens, II Dan TKD Springdale, Arkansas --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:18:39 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: belts, ranks, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net peter, i don't see anything "abnormal" about your post... makes a lot of sense to me. imo practical techniques should be taught to students regardless of their rank... to say that "you can't use that technique because you are too low in rank" to me is ridiculous. btw, i've never heard that... sounds to me like you and your companions are simply doing realistic training... which can be found in some schools. not all by any means, but certainly some. good luck with your ongoing training. "Why do I feel like I'm starting trouble every time I have something I feel I need to add here?... ...For over two years now all my practice has been with people of different skill levels and different schools in an unofficial sparring club where we train together for several hours each week and then, at the end of the week, compete in a high contact competition in which the majority of strikes, throws, and grappling moves that we know of from the sum of our experience are allowed, as well as many things that get made up on the spot to adapt to new situations. Coupled with that, all my academic study of the martial arts has come from a combination of the library and web fantastic web communities like this one. The one thing I can tell you for certain is I feel I've learned a hell of a lot more about the martial arts this way than I ever did as a conventional student. I actually think these aspects are things that dojangs can benefit their students, and by extension themselves, by adapting. I think the official ranking system can intimidate novice level students away from any kind of the necessary improvisation that comes with applying martial arts techniques and make them feel like they have to earn a rank before they can start making their techniques work. I also think that there should be more encouragement for independent learning on the academic side of the martial arts. The times are changing and I think, in the culture that we live in, that a hands-on classroom might just be more effective than a traditional dojang environment. I also think I'm going to get eaten alive for posting this. But I guess that's the risk of abnormal discourse." --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:21:22 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Snow Memories Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<14" of snow overnight... 3' high drift ... Pushing cars up the hills...1970's "survival parka"... tackle football in the snow... gray/black slush ...putting snow chains on a car...>> Reminds me about Kip's stories of walking 5 miles to school, uphill both ways, with nothing but a hot potato to keep his hands warm... timo "What's so funny about peace, love, and hypothermia?" --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:28:00 -0600 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Seeing Red--Belts that is! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, I don't know about the one other time, but as MC wrote, a quote I believe from WTSDA gup manual, I have heard it from my KJN, as well as others before I joined my org. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:45:48 -0600 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Non Dojang Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Peter, I am not going to jump on you, but I did have a couple of thoughts that came to mind. Maybe they will give you something to consider from another perspective perhaps. First, there is nothing wrong about training as you describe, and you can certainly develop some fighting ability that way. The other side of the coin is that you are dependent on the level of knowledge that you and your training group bring to the table. If it is diverse, and you have some people that you work out with who are very experienced, then you can grow. I personally believe that you need a good foundation in understanding basic movement and power development before you can really get the most out of training. If your partners have that knowledge and experience, then you can learn it. But if no one in your group understands the these principles, then you can not develop to your potential. And there are things other than fighting that you can learn in a good traditional martial arts dojang under a qualified instructor that you will not learn on your on. Of course, everything you learn in a dojang is dependent on the quality of your instructor as well. Danny Dunn <<<<<<>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 12 From: To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: belt colors Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:51:25 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i was told you should not wash your belt..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "J R Hilland" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 12:46 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: belt colors > I think we will file that one under mudo mythology. The old white ones never > turn yellow, green, blue, red or black. About every 10 years I buy a new > belt as the old one that started as dark black, turns gray and white. I wash > my belt often as it gets very sweaty and I remember in 1975, one of the new > white belts had just come from class after washing her dobok. It was a > traditional white dobok that she washed with her blue jeans. I am colored > blind, so I only saw a light gray. But all the other students said that > entire dobok was a lavender color. I can't remember if she bleached it out > or bought a new one. Of course any one can make up what the colors represent > and often do. I do not teach what the colors represent, being colored > blind - they are only a belt that keeps the top from coming open and my wife > has to get the belts from the rack for me when we have a belt test at the > dojang. > > << experience in that everyone started with white belts but the more you > trained (especially when training was outside), the dirtier your belt got. > The darkness of a belt, therefore, would roughly indicate experience. The > belt colors, going from white to black as you can experience, sorta > formalize that process>>> > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 15:35:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] belt washing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On the best washing topic, I think we went thru this a year or so ago, but no problem as we constantly revisit old topics and frequently come up with new info. I, for one, never heard of any problems with washing the belt or not letting it touch the ground/floor, but as I recall a number of others had heard that. One point is that "back in the day" (as one commonly hears these days) you pretty much had to wash a new red belt at least once or twice once you first received it. If you didn't, after a single hot sweaty workout your dobok would be ringed with red dye. So the first thing we were told was the wash the belt, by itself, right away to keep that from happening. The belts these days seem to hold their dye much better. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:42:08 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] MC Post Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Post MC This is an accurate post. concerning the 10 Dan Rank. Hwang Kee would not have accepted this as a title, because it goes against the philosophy of the Midnight Blue Belt. JC --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:56:45 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Women in TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ken History talks of Su Bak Ki and Su Bahk Hee During the three Kingdoms period the Hwa Rang Women did train although it was not necessarily combat techniques as they were not warriors. They practices technique that would resemble ceremonial dance. As for the first Moo Duk Kwan woman to receive a Dan number I don't know but I am in the middle of a study on the dan bon list create by Hwang Kee Kwan Jang Nim. I am hoping to get a lot of answers during the January Ko Dan Ja Shim Sa. The most senior woman I know in the Moo Duk Kwan is Master Mary Ann Walsh. She is a 7th Dan and her Dan Number is 17926 it would have been issued around 1972. She is still active in the Moo Duk Kwan. I have also heard that Grandmaster Hwang Kee's daughter trained although I do not know if she ever received her dan. She is married to Master Hong from the West point New York area. Master Hong is an 8th dan. As for stories, from what I can remember of my early days training with woman. They got no special treatment. They sparred the men and they got beat up a lot. For that reason there were very few. The ones that did stay I would sometimes question their gender, as they were to tough to be women. I remember a woman getting knocked out in class, and thinking she would never come back but she did. I remember her making it to Red Belt before quitting. Writing this brings back some old memories, of the old school ways. JC --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:07:18 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ray was wrong Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Ray Terry thought he was wrong one time but he later realized he had made a mistake. LOL JC --__--__-- Message: 17 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Mat Time Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:07:57 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: On the other hand, though, perhaps networking within the atmosphere of the MA seminar is preferable to the sorts of behaviors one might find in a bar afterwards, yes? FWIW. >Best Wishes, >Bruce >_______________________________________________ Bruce: I've never met you and I don't know how you participate in seminars. I always give a hapkido brother or sister, especially on the dd, the benefit of the doubt, so I assume you participate heavily in all seminars in which you attend. Some of the best "networking" I've done has been at a bar after a martial arts seminar. I prefer "networking," though, by throwing down during a seminar rather than talking on the edge. I like socializing during break time or afterward at dinner/before at breakfast. (The comment "Hey Kip, that ground fighting technique you did in high heels and a skirt was fantastic, show me at the bar..." makes me a little squeemish...and suspicious, but that's another subject.) Look (and smell) the folks at the end of the day at a martial arts seminar and you can see who has been "networking" and who has been leading by example on the mat. Nothing frustrates me more than to see black belts with starched uniforms at the end of a seminar. For you black belts, what example are YOU setting for your students if you're in that category? Go beat your face. I see guys like Hal Whalen, Bob Ingersoll, Jere Hilland, Joe John, Jimmy Green and the Virginia Boys, Perry Lyons, the list goes on, all sweaty and, God love them, smelly at the end of a throw down session. (For those of you on the dd I left out, my apologies.) I've seen and smelled Rudy Timmerman and JR West during and after a seminar, and they're some of the premier bubbas out there doing stuff on the mat. (And may I add, Rudy, the "Ode De Moose" is SPOT ON!!!) On a side note, guys, please, the Mississippi throw down is essentially a 3 day event -- bring more than one freakin' uniform!!! I just went to a seminar in Virginia in which all of us black belts smelled up the Chinese food restaurant we ate at after a full day of throw down (which caused many patrons of the restaurant to either throw up or leave...). My point is, and it's not pointed toward you, Bruce -- I've never met you -- but for those who like to sit on the side, especially black belts -- save the networking for the "afterglow," use the mat time for what it should be and that's throw down training. Kip "Better Living Through Motrin and Beer" McCormick Family Man, Dog Lover --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest