Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:43:43 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #542 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re: Snow Memories (Kip McCormick) 2. 2005 LA Sheriff's Cup (Ray Terry) 3. Re: Re: Mat Time (Ray Terry) 4. Belt Ranks (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 5. RE: Women in TSD (Denise) 6. more thrusts (Bonguk Gum) (A. Boyd) 7. Eau De Moose (Rudy Timmerman) 8. Re: Yon Mu Kwan (Bruce Sims) 9. Re: belt washin' (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 10. Belt colors (Tkdsid@aol.com) 11. Re: Re: Yon Mu Kwan (Ray Terry) 12. Meaning of Red Belt (Frank Clay) 13. Bruce's Code (Frank Clay) 14. Re: RE: Women in TSD (Ray Terry) 15. Re: belt washing (Craig Zeigler) 16. Bruce Tegner's Karate Books (Brian Beach) 17. cheap books (Charles Richards) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Kip McCormick" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Snow Memories Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:09:39 -0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I swear I was keeping my hands warm!!! >From: "tim walker" >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Snow Memories >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:21:22 -0500 > ><<14" of snow overnight... 3' high drift ... Pushing cars up the >hills...1970's "survival parka"... >tackle football in the snow... gray/black slush ...putting snow chains on a >car...>> > >Reminds me about Kip's stories of walking 5 miles to school, uphill both >ways, >with nothing but a hot potato to keep his hands warm... > >timo >"What's so funny about peace, love, and hypothermia?" >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:07:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] 2005 LA Sheriff's Cup Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 2005 L.A. Sheriff's Cup K.A. Open International Martial Arts Championships for 2005 Sept 30 - Oct 1, 2005 Sports Arena, Los Angeles, CA For more info contact Lion C. Choi at 909.862.5454 or choiskaopen@yahoo.com or www.choiskaopen.com. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Mat Time To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:20:49 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > the "Ode De Moose" is SPOT ON!!!) On a side note, guys, please, the > Mississippi throw down is essentially a 3 day event -- bring more than one > freakin' uniform!!! Speaking of... http://hapkido.com/Flyers/CLINICFLYER1.htm The 22nd International Hapkido & KMA Seminar and buffet get-down. March 11-13, 2005 Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:25:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Belt Ranks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net IMHO People put to much emphases on bet ranks. The ranks is for the instructor, for him or her to use as a tool, a method of gauging the students progress and keeping tract of multiple students. It was never intended for the student, to wear as a trophy or a badge. In the Moo Duk Kwan White (Winter) Green (Spring) Red (Summer) and Midnight Blue (Autumn) The Orange belt was later added between White and Orange for incentive because new students got discouraged being a white belt for a year or more. White- Snow--Purity-- Potential being covered up Green- The budding of new growth students begin to grasp concepts and grow as martial artist Red- Ripening of fruit ready to harvest, Fire Energy (Yang) Summer Heat Blue- When you look at the sky you see blue but it is infinite beyond what you see. perfection is unattainable I explain Orange as trees with no leaves because what they thought training was about when the new student enrolled is not reality. Like the tree loosing the leaves. Students begin to loose those false ideas about martial arts. This must happen before growth can happen. Like emptying the cup. I believe schools with very color in the crayon box sacrifice philosophy and meaning for commercialism. After all what is the meaning of the camo belt. Just my 10 cents my two cents were free JC --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Denise" To: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:48:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Women in TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JC reports: >"The ones that did stay I would sometimes question their gender, as they were to tough to be women." Would you kindly elaborate, Master Cox? I'd really appreciate being educated about this "too tough" condition of women. Please help me understand, sir? Thank you so much. Denise --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:55:34 -0500 (EST) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] more thrusts (Bonguk Gum) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think you are in the right track by analysing the written elements of the book rather than focusing on the images. I don't know about you, but I feel that the pictures are not meant to reflect the text, but rather serve as a memory trigger for the reader. Unlike you, I do not accept the commonly held idea that this book was intended for instruction. I think it was meant to record the corpus of technique so that all the trained leaders were teaching the same things. There simply isn't enough technical information presented and this discussion about thrusts goes to show that. How does one thrust? Every system has a method - in the MYDBTJ there are no methods just commands. So like you, when I read "perform a thrust with right hand and right leg" I can imagine several things - any of which could be correct and all all of which could be wrong as there is nothing in the English translation to give instruction in "the how" of it: some examples 1) one-handed thrust with right hand, charging after a power step with the right leg. 2) one-handed thrust with the right hand, body parallel to the ground, thrust kick to the rear with the right leg. 3) two-handed thrust in the right side highline, pushing off the right foot, with left foot forward So, it's pretty obvious by now I'm sure that I'm not too interested in authoritatively figuring out what Yi et al. were getting at in the MYDBTJ. I'm just interested on an intellectual level. What does grab my attention is the essence of practical swordwork. What *can't* work in practice? What *always* works in practice? What are the mechanics of the action and how do I modify them to control the outcome? That's what drags me to the freezing cold depths of the dojang on these dark mornings. That being the case, what interests me most about your post is your decision to set your sabre thrust as blade edge L or R as your default. I'd like to hear your reasoning on that. Also, I'd like to hear your thoughts on grip changes if you are feeling expansive. 1.) Is a thrust delivered with the left leg when it is the leg stepping forward, or the leg that is behind that is providing the impetus for the thrust? 2.) If the thrust is with a single-hand sword a person could be forgiven for thinking that a thrust with the left hand would mean the sword is held in the left hand. A thrust with the right hand would require that the sword be past to the right hand (?). But if the sword is two-handed how does one discriminate between a "left-handed thrust" and a "right-handed thrust"? 3.) As I write this I must disclose that all of the modern sources I have found so far only state one of two options for thrusting--- blade-up and blade-down. In the sword that I practice we also have blade-edge-left and blade-edge-right. For us the orientation of the blade-edge relates to the target selected. To speed the discussion along, what I have discerned for a solution follows. Unless the movement specifies an upward or downward orientation of the sword as (IE. "Jik Bu sends a scroll"; "Wild Goose Posture") I conclude that the thrust is either a left or right orientation. Since you have experience with Western Fencing you will appreciate the need for proper form in the thrust between the hand and the sword tip, yes? If, therefore, a comment states "...thrusting with the left foot and hand" I take this as stepping with the left foot and thrusting with the blade oriented to the right as this provides for the best application of thrusting force from the left hand to the tip. Conversely, if one were to "...thrust with left foot and right hand.." the step would be with the left foot but the blade edge would be oriented to the left as the best thrusting orientation for the right hand to the tip would follow. Biomechanically the interpretation is sound and it does not contradict anything in the text. Thoughts? Comments? ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:11:08 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Eau De Moose Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kip writes: > I've seen and smelled > Rudy Timmerman and JR West during and after a seminar, and they're > some of > the premier bubbas out there doing stuff on the mat. (And may I add, > Rudy, > the "Ode De Moose" is SPOT ON!!!) On a side note, guys, please, the > Mississippi throw down is essentially a 3 day event -- bring more than > one > freakin' uniform!!! Hello Kip: I sure ain't the sweetest thing you ever smelled after a day on JRs mats. Man, in that heat, you HAVE to change a few times A DAY or you stand a good chance of never again finding a willing partner lol. I break out in a sweat just driving there, but looking forward to it:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:23:45 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Yon Mu Kwan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....I thought that kwan was similar to, or same as, the Japanese kan. Both literally meaning house, palace, mansion, library or large building....." Literally, perhaps, but not exactly. Which Hanja are you using? In its most concrete sense you would be right. The Hanja for one take on "kwan" might easily be "a large building" even "a restaurant". However, a kwan is also as I have related, just as in English a "school" can be the building on the corner as well as a "school of thought" which is to say a certain view of things. There were several kwans associated with the March 1st Movement during the Japanese Occupation though none were identified with a particular building or location (See: ABACUS AND THE SWORD). FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:37:44 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: belt washin' Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One point is that "back in the day" (as one commonly hears these days) you pretty much had to wash a new red belt at least once or twice once you first received it. If you didn't, after a single hot sweaty workout your dobok would be ringed with red dye. So the first thing we were told was the wash the belt, by itself, right away to keep that from happening. ______________________________ it also helps to soak it in vinegar & water solution prior to washing as this will help set the dye. same goes for colorful uniforms...especially reversible judogi :) take care, mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy _www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply _www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 20:43:18 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Belt colors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Fellow Martial Artists: In 1964 I was a student of Rhin Moon Chun. He is now known as Dr. Richard Chun. While a very young green belt I was truly taken by the surprise visit of Hwang Kee. He was an 8th dan and wore a black belt. He explained, through Master Chun, that we follow the following belt system: White, Yellow, Green, Brown, Red and Black belts. We also used plus and minus kup system. Did he change that at a later date? Maybe? But this is what I saw first hand. Later on I was surprised he used the brown belt as it was distinctively Japanese. In my last school we used white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, red, red/black with ultimately three tips. Know what? All of the belts come down to this...WHITE belt until black! So why quibble? Sincerely, Sid Rubinfeld (PS ...Hwang Kee never mentioned Midnight Blue when I met him!) --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Yon Mu Kwan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 17:30:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ".....I thought that kwan was similar to, or same as, > the Japanese kan. Both literally meaning house, > palace, mansion, library or large building....." > > Literally, perhaps, but not exactly. Which Hanja are you using? The one for kwan as in Moo Duk Kwan. Even looks a bit like a house. Not sure how else to describe it in ascii text. But your mention of school house vs. school of thought seems a very reasonable alternative. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:21:06 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Meaning of Red Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I too was taught that the red belt was a symbol for danger. If we keep in mind that TSD MDK was based on the teachings of No Ja, as per the MDK text vol.1 (English), then that would be logical. Throughout nature red is a warning for danger: black widows, coral snakes, fire, and so forth all have red markings. Incidentally, this danger is also two sided. Without these items, Earth would be over run by vermin, underbrush and so forth. If applied to yugupja, it would be logical, because at 3rd through 1st gup the student progresses his skill and abilities but may not have the control of a yudanja. So red can be viewed as a warning to him, to be cautious, and to the parter that this person has acquired some skill but may not have mastered the control of his skill. I think that we need to be cautious of the lessons provided by Great Grandmaster Hwang Kee. When you study something, your teacher will give you the tools to learn and guide you through the learning process. A good teacher will not give you the entire lesson, as that is left for research. It is common knowledge that one learns more when guided to an answer than when an answer is merely handed to you. Isn't this why we require (typically) that yudanja candidates do theses? Or why scholars are required to do research and present theses? The lessons that Master Hwang provided us are invaluable. I simply do not believe that his lessons represent the whole of his teaching. It is said that a yudanja learns to apply the lessons of the dojang to real life. How would this be possible if the lesson was spoon fed? Take the water principle from Hapkido for example. How difficult was it to learn to use this principle on the mat? Take that one step further, when someone is really jerking your chain, how hard is it to REMEMBER this lesson? Opinions? Frank --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:26:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce's Code Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I don't think this is purely a Yon Mu Kwan code. As you may know I started in TSD not HKD. When that teacher left the MDK he switched over to Mun Mu Kwan Taekwondo. This was the original oath used in that school. They later changed to the Chung Do Kwan version, but for the life of me I cannot remember it right off. I don't remember ever reciting a code in Hapkido. That does not mean that it is an invalid practice mind you, as I think that such recitation can have subconscious, almost mantra-like effect. I do think it is interesting that both our schools used the same code though. Frank --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Women in TSD To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 18:35:00 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > JC reports: > >"The ones that did stay I would sometimes question their gender, as they > >were to tough to be women." > > Would you kindly elaborate, Master Cox? I'd really appreciate being educated > about this "too tough" condition of women. Please help me understand, sir? > Thank you so much. > > Denise Does that foot taste good, JC? :) I wondered just how many seconds it would take someone to jump on that faux pas. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:36:21 -0500 From: Craig Zeigler To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] belt washing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Terry wrote: >On the best washing topic, I think we went thru this a year or so ago, >but no problem as we constantly revisit old topics and frequently come >up with new info. > >I, for one, never heard of any problems with washing the belt or not letting >it touch the ground/floor, but as I recall a number of others had heard that. > >One point is that "back in the day" (as one commonly hears these days) you >pretty much had to wash a new red belt at least once or twice once you first >received it. If you didn't, after a single hot sweaty workout your dobok >would be ringed with red dye. So the first thing we were told was the wash >the belt, by itself, right away to keep that from happening. > >The belts these days seem to hold their dye much better. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > I don't think it is possible not to get the dobock turned some color during its life. Mine is permanently red (partly from blood... mine...) and partly because I once wore a red t-shirt under it. I did see a fellow student wear a tie dye shirt under his and for some reason has the most interesting dobock I had ever seen. --__--__-- Message: 16 From: Brian Beach Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:05:12 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce Tegner's Karate Books Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Beside my steady diet of "Kung Fu Action Theater" on Saturdays Bruce Tegner's books were my first link to martial arts. I remembering finding "Self Defense" in the library and thought I had found the dead sea scrolls. The books were definitely one of my influences in pursuing martial arts. Now, when ever I happen into used book stores I always look for them. So far I've picked up "Complete Book of Judo","Self Defense - Nerve Centers & Pressure Points" and " Kung Fu and Tai Chi" Not a bad buy at a buck a piece. Brian Beach On Dec 15, 2004, at 12:52 PM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > he question is - have > you ever found inspiration, techniques, concepts, whatever from these > sort of > cheap books, and if so, did it help or hinder you in the long/short > term? --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 21:21:31 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] cheap books Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "The question is - have you ever found inspiration, techniques, concepts, whatever from these sort of cheap books, and if so, did it help or hinder you in the long/short term?" MC Reply, I can usually find at least one nugget in a martial arts book I buy :-) The Judo for boys actually helped me refresh the 6 basic yudo throw I require Moja Kwan Red belt and higher to perform. Just about everyone has seen them or incorporated them into their art, but I learned them as part of Hapkido Sun Moo Kwan requirements. Hip throw One arm shoulder throw Major Outter Leg Reap Major Inner Leg Reap Variable body drop Circle Throw YIJD, MC --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest