Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 03:03:35 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #543 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Washing the belt (Ken Nessworthy) 2. Re: Belts - Washing and Juxtaposing with Floor (Bert Edens) 3. Re:Dochang Kun (Bruce Sims) 4. washing this and that (J R Hilland) 5. Tegner Books (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 6. Re: Sword Thrusts (Bruce Sims) 7. RE: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido (J R Hilland) 8. No time like the present to start making plans (J R Hilland) 9. Bruce Tegner (john.a.mcintosh@bt.com) 10. Welcome (Sharon Tkach) 11. Woman (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 12. Hwang Kee's Belt (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 13. Kwan (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 14. RE: Woman (Denise) 15. interesting old articles (Ray Terry) 16. RE: belt washing (Dana Vaillancourt) 17. Red Scorpion Invitational (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Ken Nessworthy" To: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 07:43:35 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Washing the belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When I started TSD many years ago I was told NEVER to wash your belt. In fact I know of one woman who washed it and Master Khan who I used to train under went ballistic with her explaining that she had washed the knowledge from her belt. I still teach that same philosophy today. With respect Ken --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:32:43 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Belts - Washing and Juxtaposing with Floor Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At 17:16 12/15/04, you wrote: >I, for one, never heard of any problems with washing the belt or not letting >it touch the ground/floor, but as I recall a number of others had heard that. Greetings, all... We've always been told not to wash our belts, unless it really gets nasty smelling... Then I would wash it by hand... I have heard the myth of "washing out the knowledge", which is just that... a myth... (Sorry, I can't say that without having a Muppet Movie moment :))... Belts do get nasty sometimes, especially after several consecutive nights of heavy workouts... As for it touching the floor, I don't subscribe to that theory as much like we would treat a flag (don't let it touch the ground), but more like treating it with respect... But I do the same with my dobok... I cringe when I see lower gups throwing their doboks and belts on the floor when changing clothes... I can't do that... To me, taking care of the dobok and belt is the same as bowing when entering the dojang or training floor.... respect for the art, what you've learned, and what you are yet to learn... But I'm also very much a traditionalist when it comes to those things... I believe it helps with the self-discipline... **bows** Bert Edens, II Dan TKD Springdale, Arkansas --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:11:00 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Dochang Kun Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....I do think it is interesting that both our schools used the same code though....." In like manner I was also stunned to hear that the Kyokushinkai class (Oak Park, Ill) finished every training session with almost an identical oath. Well, maybe not SO surprising considering the path that Oyama took to greatness and what his heritage was. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:27:54 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] washing this and that Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Master Hilland wrote: >> I wash my belt often as it gets very sweaty > I was told early on to never wash my belt. Is this common in other > schools/styles? Mmmm. I never said "I was told early on to never wash my belt". Someone is adding a something I never said, but then it does contradict what I first said. But to clarify, I was always told to wash my belt, specially in the 70's as the colors would bleed onto the dobok. I still wash my belt, it is part of the dobok and is subject to getting sweaty, dirty, etc. That is kind of gross if you NEVER wash your belt. JR Hilland www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:31:47 -0600 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Tegner Books Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You know, I can still remember the very first martial art book I ever bought was Tegner's "Karate" book, followed by his "Judo" book, both published by Bantam I believe. I got these around 5th grade when we used to be able to order books through a paper distributed through the reading program in public school. There were no martial art classes in my small town then, and even if there had been, my parents would not have been able to afford it. But a friend and I poured over those books and tried out things, practicing what we got to work. I think I have about all of Tegner's books in my library now, and I sometimes go back and look at the worn pages of that first book and remember my friend and I practicing in the grass in my front yard, or some of the altercations that were a regular part of school life then and there. Tegner was ahead of his time in recognizing the martial art book market in the US. Danny Dunn --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 08:33:27 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sword Thrusts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Anthony: ".....That being the case, what interests me most about your post is your decision to set your sabre thrust as blade edge L or R as your default. I'd like to hear your reasoning on that. Also, I'd like to hear your thoughts on grip changes if you are feeling expansive......" Whoo-boy! This is one of those things I wish we could have discussed while I was there. OK-- but first we have to have an understanding. The Ye-do I am speaking of is the curved, two-handed dao and I am performing a two-handed thrust. I also have to share that in HwaRang Kum Bup the blade orients according to the target so as to effect penetration. I say this because while it may not be too important which way the blade faces to penetrate the clavicular notch at the base of the throat, penetrating between the ribs will be infinitely easier with the blade turned left or right than to have it vertical. Ok, that said, take your shin gum and identify a suitable round and smooth target. I think an ideal candidate would be a 6" PVC pipe about a foot long and slung loosely over the top of a fence post. You dont want the target to be too stable. 1. Test One: Execute a Left Handed thrust with the blade edge oriented to the left. If the vector of the thrust is truely empowered by the left hand I suggest that your thrust has a 50-50 chance of glancing off to the right of the pipe. This is because the impact can easily be on the cutting edge of the tip. 2.) Test Two: Execute a second Left-Handed thrust, this time with the blade edge oriented to the right. If the vector of the thrust is truely empowered by the left hand I suggest that your thrust has a 70-30 chance of catching (and penetrating a softer target) rather than glancing off. Now, true, if one were using a Ye-do after the fashion of the Chinese jian, this becomes less problematic, but using a curved sword and thrusting for penetration is not all that simple and I think that the trainers of old knew this. I also think this is why people who translate these works are better served by seeking out someone who has actually handled a weapon before just translating characters without true insight. BTW: There is also a subtle pattern to the way that the stepping is described relative to the sword technique but I don't think I am going to get any more clarity out of the English version. Looks like I should have gotten the Korean version while I was at Kyobo, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:39:04 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Ray, I always associated Korean kwan as similar to Japanese ryu and Korean won as Japanese kan. ??? Dakin? Your thoughts? JR Hilland www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 10:40:51 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] No time like the present to start making plans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 22nd INTERNATIONAL HAPKIDO SEMINAR Host Instructor - Master J. R. West, 8th Dan March 11th - 13th , 2005 OPEN TO ALL STYLES AND RANKS http://www.hapkido.com/Flyers/CLINICFLYER1.htm SCHEDULE Friday, March 11th - 6:00 p.m. - 9:00 pm. - 2 sessions Saturday, March 12th - 9:00 a.m. - 7:15 pm. - 7 sessions Sunday, March 13th - 10:00 a.m. - 2:15 pm. - 3 sessions Note: During the course of the clinic, each one hour session consists of three different classes from which to choose. Attend only the classes that interest you. Most classes are repeated so that you don't have to miss anything. Attend all or part of the three day seminar. Certificates of completion are awarded on Saturday. SPECIAL GUEST; DR. HE YOUNG KIMM The founder and President of the World Hanmudo Assn. will be present on Saturday to make his books and other works available. Dr. Kimm is a world famous Martial Art practitioner, teacher, historian and author, and has long been associated with Master West. Visiting Instructors: (list may change due to last-minute additions or conflicts) Master Rudy Timmerman, 9th Dan Sault Ste. Marie, Canada Master Rich Hodder, 8th Dan Seabrook, TX Master Holcombe Thomas, 7th Dan Falls Church, VA Master Dennis McHenry, 6th Dan Houston, TX Master Ray Terry, 5th Dan Campbell, CA Master Jere Hilland, 5th Dan Fargo, ND Master Perry Lyons, 5th Dan Littlestown, PA Master Don Kirsch, 5th Dan Austin, TX Master Joe Borucki, 5th Dan Hampstead, MD Master Dexter Mangum, 5th Dan Jackson, MS Master Anthony New, 5th Dan Fort Wayne, IN Master Instructor Mark Propst, 4th Dan Jackson, MS Master Instructor John Lindsly, 4th Dan Jackson, MS Master Instructor Wayne Watkins, 4th Dan Jackson, MS Master Instructor Kenneth Peacock, 4th Dan Jackson, MS Master Instructor Steve Black, 4th Dan Jackson, MS Master Instructor John Harrison, 4th Dan Jackson, MS Headquarters Hotel, Holiday Inn North....601-366-9411 --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:56:08 -0000 From: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce Tegner Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Since there have been a couple of replies in favour of Bruce Tegner I think that we should take the next logical step - resurrect Jukado!!! We can all formally appoint each other as Black Belts and, after a while, start breaking apart while denouncing each other as veering from the rightful path. I claim Scotland as my own personal fiefdom and anyone who wants to practice here can pay me large amounts of cash for the right follow the one true way! All hail Bruce (Tegner and Sims as well) See you all after a long weekend. John Chieftain of Clan Jukado --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Sharon Tkach" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:58:09 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Welcome Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Welcome, Nickolay. ~Sharon --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:01:45 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Woman Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Denise; I hope you are not offended, that was not my intention. I simply mean that training in the seventies was not the same as it is today. The training was much more physical. Woman by nature are less physical than men. They are generally not as strong, they generally have less of a pain tolerance, not to mention the emotional differences. For these reasons there were few woman that continued to train during that time. Some woman did. I trained with a woman named Kim Davis. She later went into the Marine Corp and became a combat instructor. you have to agree this is not the normal. I have trained with Lisa Kozak (Black belt Hall of Fame member) She is very feminine in person but in Do-Bak she is not. Again she is unusual look at the list of Black Belt hall of Fame what is the ratio of men to woman. I agree there are exceptions, and those exception get emotional about this topic. The fact still remains that in the old days, few woman were willing to absorb the abuse of that kind of training. The ones that did, at least the ones I can personal speak from that time, cut their hair short, wore pants, and no make up. They where not the typical lady. I am not condemning them just stating a fact. No Disrespect intended JC --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:10:21 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwang Kee's Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sid Who was an 8th Dan and Who wore a Black Belt. I have never seen anything or heard anyone talk of Hwang Kee wearing a Black Belt only Midnight Blue. I have however seen Midnight Blue belts that were so dark they appeared Black. Also was it Hwang Kee or Master Chun you remember using yellow and brown belts. I have never seen anyone under Hwang Kee use these either. JC --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:13:20 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kwan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Most all English written translation referring to the term Kwan (as in Moo Duk Kwan) Refer to it as School or Institute. But I am sure it would depend on the text in which it is used. JC --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Denise" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Woman Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 15:29:35 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I hope you are not offended, that was not my intention. I simply mean that training in the seventies was not the same as it is today. The training was much more physical. Woman by nature are less physical than men. They are generally not as strong, they generally have less of a pain tolerance, not to mention the emotional differences. For these reasons there were few woman that continued to train during that time. Some woman did. I trained with a woman named Kim Davis. She later went into the Marine Corp and became a combat instructor. you have to agree this is not the normal. I have trained with Lisa Kozak (Black belt Hall of Fame member) She is very feminine in person but in Do-Bak she is not. Again she is unusual look at the list of Black Belt hall of Fame what is the ratio of men to woman. I agree there are exceptions, and those exception get emotional about this topic. The fact still remains that in the old days, few woman were willing to absorb the abuse of that kind of training. The ones that did, at least the ones I can personal speak from that time, cut their hair short, wore pants, and no make up. They where not the typical lady. I am not condemning them just stating a fact. No Disrespect intended JC Ray, I'm sorry for the lengthy quote. I just couldn't figure out what to snip. JC, I'm not offended. I'm dumbfounded. Denise --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:00:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] interesting old articles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net fyi, Some interesting old TSD and HKD articles avaialble for reading at: http://www.budget.net/~dnolan/Articles.htm Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Dana Vaillancourt" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:15:57 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: belt washing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I can't speak about "back in the day," but I can remember during my early years I heard several times that you do not wash your belt (once you've worn it) as it symbolically washes away your hard-earned sweat = experience. I was also taught to keep a clean and non-wrinkled do-bak and to only wear it in class. I off-and-on heard the don't let your belt hit the floor, but more in the context of self-respect [than like the greater infraction of dropping the flag]. However, we often used belts as "budget" equipment or self-defense during our training in college. In the same vein, I was taught [by my mother] that you definitly want to wash your underwear. Although one could argue the defensive capability of not washing them!! :) Ray wrote: I, for one, never heard of any problems with washing the belt or not letting >it touch the ground/floor, but as I recall a number of others had heard >that. > >One point is that "back in the day" (as one commonly hears these days) you >pretty much had to wash a new red belt at least once or twice once you >first >received it. If you didn't, after a single hot sweaty workout your dobok >would be ringed with red dye. So the first thing we were told was the wash >the belt, by itself, right away to keep that from happening. --__--__-- Message: 17 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:53:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Red Scorpion Invitational Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Red Scorpion 12th Annual Invitational Tae Kwon Do February 12, 2005 Cypress College 9200 Valley View St. Cypress, Calif For more info call 714.893.0989 FAX: 714.893.0754 www.redscorpion.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest