Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 03:04:18 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #544 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Belts under Hwang Kee (Tkdsid@aol.com) 2. Ken (Frank Clay) 3. RE: Washing the belt (Jon Payne) 4. Jukado - We are the true Heirs (Brian Beach) 5. Women in MA (Master Mac) 6. RE: Washing the belt (CStovall@nucorar.com) 7. RE: Woman (CStovall@nucorar.com) 8. Grandma's Happy Fist (Sharon Tkach) 9. Tegner books (Charles Richards) 10. Women (Charles Richards) 11. Denise (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 12. RE: Jukado - We are the true Heirs (Erik Brann) 13. Bruce Tegner (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:44:39 -0500 From: Tkdsid@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Belts under Hwang Kee Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear JC: I personally saw, witnessed and examined Hwang Kee wearing a Modd Duk Kwan Dobak trimmed by sleeve, collar and hem in black. As to yellow and brown that was Richard Chun's school. Sincerely, Sid Rubinfeld --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:35:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ken Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net << When I started TSD many years ago I was told NEVER to wash your belt. In fact I know of one woman who washed it and Master Khan who I used to train under went ballistic with her explaining that she had washed the knowledge from her belt. I still teach that same philosophy today. With respect Ken >> I was taught the same thing. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jon Payne" To: "The_Dojang" Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Washing the belt Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:11:01 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>When I started TSD many years ago I was told NEVER to wash your belt.>> Guess I won't wash my dobok either, I would hate to lose that knowledge. Hey what about my socks? Wonder how much knowledge they have? Ooh, and my underwear too! Hate to wash away what they know! hehe, Jon --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Brian Beach Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:39:01 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Jukado - We are the true Heirs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We missed out - http://www.jukadousa.com/ All though we could denounce them and say we have the true linage back to Tenger. I have my "Bantam Cert" and access to the "ancient scrolls" :P Brian On Dec 17, 2004, at 6:03 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > Since there have been a couple of replies in favour of Bruce Tegner I > think > that we should take the next logical step - resurrect Jukado!!! --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:21:50 -0600 From: Master Mac To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Women in MA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net " I simply mean that training in the seventies was not the same as it is today." I haven't seen a lot of difference myself. " The fact still remains that in the old days, few woman were willing to absorb the abuse of that kind of training. The ones that did, at least the ones I can personal speak from that time, cut their hair short, wore pants, and no make up. They where not the typical lady. I am not condemning them just stating a fact." This doesn't sound like my sister at all - she was the one who got me started training in the mid '70s. She was the first woman in the TKD dojang where I started, and trained in both TKD & TSD with me (or I with her). She had/has long hair, wore makeup, etc. - typical woman training in MA - breaking boards, sparring, etc. Mac --__--__-- Message: 6 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:59:03 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Washing the belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Actually, this is true. It's the exact same reason why I no longer wash my hair. Craig "Has Now Heard it All" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 12:02:12 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Woman Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Sir, you need to hang out with more women... Yes, women have a tremendous disadvantage when it comes to upper body strength due to smaller bone structure (compared to men) through the clavicles and shoulders (read: poorer leverage). Women also have less potential to develop muscular mass in the upper extremities due to this and the obvious hormonal factors. Having said that...most women are VERY well suited to arts like TKD and TSD due to wider pelvises (better base), and most women have a fair ability to develop tremendous strength through the legs, hips, and glutes. This helps out a lot when trying to engage in traditional TSD/TKD that relies on strong kicks and low, solid stances. As far as the pain tolerance thing...you have GOT to be kidding! Women can endure so much more pain and discomfort than men that it's not even funny. If it was up to men to squeeze out an 8-pound baby then the human race would have never gotten out of the gate. Granted, I don't know many women who have the "pain tolerance" to do the stupid, macho things that men do (beating each other silly comes to mind). Just keep in mind that it's not a higher "pain tolerance" present when you see men doing "tough" things...it's mostly the result of EGO and HORMONES. Emotional differences? Yes, the higher levels of estrogen lead to DIFFERENT emotional response patterns than men under most conditions. And do you know what? When the rubber hits the road it don't mean a flipping thing. Here's the bottom line...women scare the crap out of me. When men get into a beef it's as much dancing and posturing as it is a fight. Brother, when women get into a beef it is ON!!! Hands down, the most brutal fights I have ever witnessed in my entire life have ALWAYS been between women. Hair pulling, nail scratching, biting, foot stomping...it's ALL fair game. And they will fight until their last breath...there's none of this "have ya had enough" crap. You better pull 'em apart or call an ambulance. No, the average woman is no match for the average man when it comes down to a physical altercation (ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING EQUAL). But, IMHO a motivated woman can handle good old hard dojang training as well as the average man. The "problem" is that most women are socialized to avoid such things as martial arts. Yes, there are differences between men and women (I'm anything but naïve), but they can sure do it if they choose to and some of those differences actually give them an advantage over men when it comes to certain types of martial arts training. For what it's worth... Craig "Getting Brownie Points with the Ladies" Stovall CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Sharon Tkach" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:04:30 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Grandma's Happy Fist Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just for fun! Little Red Riding Hood's style (vid): http://www.manzonderkop.be/Post/?P_ID=6908 --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 13:48:33 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Tegner books Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "But a friend and I poured over those books and tried out things, practicing what we got to work. I think I have about all of Tegner's books in my library now, and I sometimes go back and look at the worn pages of that first book and remember my friend and I practicing in the grass in my front yard, or some of the altercations that were a regular part of school life then and there. Tegner was ahead of his time in recognizing the martial art book market in the US." MC Reply, Danny, I got my Judo for boys book from the same kind of school book club and read it over and over several times. My neighbor across the street Kevin Nickleberry became my involuntary Uki for front yard practice. Before that school year ended (I think 1st grade) another little boy named Charles said he was going to beat me up because I had HIS name. I was worried all morning.....finally recess came and he confronted me...much to his surprise I executed a pretty crude but effective hip throw....depositing him in the mud as it had rained the day before :-) I got my Tegner book from the thrift store already well worn, that same year. I think it finally failed to survive my last moving experience as it was mostly yellowed pages and scotch tape by then. Now we have DVD's and online video clips :-) YIJD, MC --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 14:09:04 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Women Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear JC, Sorry but I have to disagree with you on Women. For Starters: Linda Denley - TSD - BB Hall of Fame Kathy "the punisher" Long - undefeated Kickboxer Denise Lee - TSD/SBD Master Isabell Hampton - TSD Master Carol (Blanchford) Coker - TSD Master kicks through baseball bat with her shin Sharon Williams - TSD Master former AAU national team member Barbara Kukendal Kim Du Trin - Canadian forms champion Melody Shuman, Dawn Barnes & Kathy Marlor how could I forget Cynthia Rothrock - TSD blackbelt, movie star Where have you been hiding? We have a saying at our school..."You kick like a girl." To which my ladies reply with a smile "yeah, a Moja Kwan girl." My little 110# 4th gup was nicknamed "thumper" by the guys the first night she kicked a bag. I have a teenager that just earned her first gup and is a two time AAU national champion in sparring and LOVES to spar the boys :-) Maybe I'm biassed because my first TSD instructor Sheila Carpenter was a woman that led a class that truly stuck my dobohk to me every night from sweat. I would have to peel my uniform off in the locker room after class :-) Now... stereotypically women have a greater lower body strength than upper, but that is almost a perfect match for martial arts. Seriously go back and watch some of Kathy Long's fights...enters the ring as a beautiful fashion statement and leaves the ring with her opponent KOed.... Be Well, MC --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:59:30 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Denise Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Denise Please don't misunderstand me. I was not attempting to say woman are in anyway less than men. I am simply saying that in the old school training was much harder than it is today, and most woman did not care to be bruised and beaten on a weekly bases. I mentioned Master Lisa Kozak. You may know her, as I understand you were once a Moo Duk Kwan member. She is as feminine as any other lady I know, but in Do-Bak she spars as hard as any man I know, and her technical ability is amazing. JC --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Erik Brann" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Jukado - We are the true Heirs Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 22:07:01 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net GM Viernes is as stand up and knowledgable person as I have ever met. I don't think he's fibbing. -----Original Message----- From: Brian Beach [mailto:brian@jinpalhapkidodc.com] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 10:39 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Jukado - We are the true Heirs We missed out - http://www.jukadousa.com/ All though we could denounce them and say we have the true linage back to Tenger. I have my "Bantam Cert" and access to the "ancient scrolls" :P Brian On Dec 17, 2004, at 6:03 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > Since there have been a couple of replies in favour of Bruce Tegner I > think > that we should take the next logical step - resurrect Jukado!!! _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 19:40:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce Tegner Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Given the chatter about Bruce Tegner's books I thought I'd forward this bit from the web. FWIW.... Remembering Bruce Tegner If I asked you to name a man who was one of the first to teach Asian Martial arts to westerners, took the mysticism out of the martial arts and condescended several systems into his own practical self defense system, disposing of the "chaff" of traditional Asian martial arts, who would you name? You might say, that's easy, Bruce Lee. Well, you would be wrong, at least in this case. While Lee is often credited with making martial arts effective again, years before Lee liberated the west from Classical Karate another man blazed that trail. Almost 20 years before anyone ever heard of Lee, Bruce Tegner took the mystery out of oriental martial arts and made them accessible to the average westerner. He was a prolific writer whose breadth of knowledge was staggering. He also was a pioneer in the field of practical self defense. According to the Biographies written in his books, Bruce Tegner was "born in to the martial arts" in October 1929. He first studied Judo under his parents and later under legends like Kuwushima. By 1949 he was the California State Judo Champion. Along the way he also studied other martial arts such as Karate and Aikido as well as several weapon arts. He taught actors such as Rick Nelson and James Coburn, and choreographed movie fights scenes. He even taught various units in the armed forces. Unfortunately Bruce Tegner has been all but forgotten. His numerous books can only be found in second hand book shops and very few people can name the art he founded: Jukado. This is even more tragic because Bruce Tegner's self defense methods are some of the best ever; simple, efficient and effective. One of Bruce's main contributions to self defense was that he dispelled a lot of the myths about the martial arts and brought realism to the fore again. One of these myths was the myth of the "Black Belt as a superman". In his book Bruce Tegner's Complete Book of Self-Defense he wrote, "Contrary to popular belief, the first black belts were not deadly killers; they were skilled sportsman." He was, of course, referring to Jigoro Kano implementing the use of colored belts for Judo, primarily a sport and means of physical education. He continues: "The myth of the black belt has spread widely and many people are convinced that the wearer of a black belt has super-human powers, that only a black belt qualifies a teacher of self defense... and so on through a long list of erroneous information about belt ranking." He also dispelled the myth that only athletes should practice the martial arts. In fact, he challenged the widely held (at the time) fact that martial arts required athleticism. Who, he asked, is more vulnerable to assault - a little old lady or a strong young athlete? As a result, his self defense method relied very little on strength and athleticism. Bruce also loved to keep it simple. Rather than have an answer for every attack he taught a few simple moves that the defender could adapt to many different situations. Bob Rosenbaum, one of Bruce Tegner's Jukado Black belts explains, "[He told us] there are no pat answers... [and that] the most important weapon we have is the mind." He was also one of the first to teach principles that could be adapted rather than static rules. Bob Rosenbaum gives an example one of Tegner's theories, "go to the immediate danger": "[When attacked with a] standing rear naked choke, don't first try to strike the attacker but first try to control and negate the choke by grabbing the arm and pulling it in and down, giving yourself time to counter the choke, only then do you counter strike your attacker." As is common for ground breakers, Tegner was badmouthed by his more traditional counter parts. They complained he was too commercial yet Bob maintains the atmosphere was that of a family or home. Bob even describes Bruce as a "father figure". I don't think you can ask for much more than that. Tegner was also blasted for teaching celebrities such as James Coburn or Rick Nelson. When Tegner presented Nelson with a black belt the fallout was staggering. Bob thinks Nelson (and Bruce) was unfairly criticized. "Bruce had all his test requirements down in writing," Bob remembers, "Ricky Nelson was given no special treatment on his testing, [and he] took 2 private lessons per week after the school closed for the night... Rick would not make the world forget Mike Stone or Chuck Norris, but was a good black belt for that era." All and all Bruce Tegner was a driving force for the Martial Arts in the 1950's and 1960's and unfortunately if rarely remembered. When he is remembered, he is often derided for being to simplistic, or "good for beginners but very basic". Yet, those were his greatest strengths; he knew that the people that needed his help were beginners. He knew that simple effective techniques that could be easily adapted for a multitude of scenarios were what worked. He also knew that self defense and the martial arts should be available to everyone. The result was dozens of books which gave many people their first look at the martial arts. Bruce Tegner was a pioneer, he was a trailblazer and a person who really deserves a hell of a lot more respect than he gets. He led the way for innovators like Bruce Lee and Ed Parker. He introduced many people to various systems of martial arts and his self defense system is just as relevant today as it was back then. Mainly though Bruce Tegner deserved to be remembered. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest