Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 03:04:15 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #545 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Master Cox (Denise) 2. RE: belt washing (PETER.MCDONALDSMITH@london-fire.gov.uk) 3. women and the martial arts (Don Kirsch) 4. Re: Bruce Tegner (Bruce Sims) 5. Woman (Gladewater SooBahkDo) 6. washing the belt (Tkdsid@aol.com) 7. Ray Terry on Red Belt (Johnjfitzg@aol.com) 8. Hapkido Articles (Sharon Tkach) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Denise" To: Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 01:21:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Master Cox Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Cox- Yes, I do know of Master Kozak and did have the opportunity to share a sparring match with her. It was, indeed, enjoyable. I don't think that you and I can reconcile our perspectives on women, but I do appreciate your concern that your statements might have offended me. As I said, I'm not offended, just befuddled. I think the responses from others on the DD might help you see why that is. But I also see that you take what you do very seriously and I respect that. So, instead of trying to resolve that issue, I would ask you about the underlying meaning of this statement: "I am simply saying that in the old school training was much harder than it is today, and most women did not care to be bruised and beaten on a weekly basis." My question is: "What was the POINT of that kind of training? How do you think the skill levels, the character development, the applicability of the training to life was/were "better" than in the students we teach today? I ask because that comes through clearly in your posts about training "in the old days." Were the Dans "produced" by that training really "better" than those "produced" by an evolved approach to training? If so, then in what way(s)? I'm a "product" of intense training that was quite enjoyable. Oh, it was frustrating and challenging and I have some lingering injuries as a result of all that "fun." But, the point was not to slam each other as hard as possible at every chance. (If I hurt my partner, then I have no one to play with any more.) The point was to find one's courage and develop the skill to do whatever it would take in a confrontation/altercation, coupled with the judgment to make the right decision as to what action that might involve. It was not to beat the tar out of each other, nor was it to beat up our own bodies so that they don't work well into our later years. (I'm living in my later years, so I know really well about that.) A founding principle of the SBDMDK is Hwang Kee's interpretation of the Song of the Sip Sahm Seh, isn't it? When contemplating those lines, how do you see that the "brutal" training of the past was better than what those of us who teach today are doing? What was its purpose? I teach my students to train with a "seriousness of purpose and a lightness of being." How can one connect with "the slightest change, from full to empty" when training all-out all the time? Anyway, thanks for the opportunity for a dialogue. I'd also like to thank Master Richards for including me in his list. That was very kind, but I'm justDenise. --__--__-- Message: 2 Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] belt washing Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 14:03:27 -0000 From: To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I know not washing your belt is definite trad in shotokan. maybe the trad has filtered into KMA. RULDS2 -----Original Message----- From: Craig Zeigler [mailto:craig@cfrscca.net] Sent: 16 December 2004 03:36 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] belt washing Ray Terry wrote: >On the best washing topic, I think we went thru this a year or so ago, >but no problem as we constantly revisit old topics and frequently come >up with new info. > >I, for one, never heard of any problems with washing the belt or not letting >it touch the ground/floor, but as I recall a number of others had heard that. > >One point is that "back in the day" (as one commonly hears these days) you >pretty much had to wash a new red belt at least once or twice once you first >received it. If you didn't, after a single hot sweaty workout your dobok >would be ringed with red dye. So the first thing we were told was the wash >the belt, by itself, right away to keep that from happening. > >The belts these days seem to hold their dye much better. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > > I don't think it is possible not to get the dobock turned some color during its life. Mine is permanently red (partly from blood... mine...) and partly because I once wore a red t-shirt under it. I did see a fellow student wear a tie dye shirt under his and for some reason has the most interesting dobock I had ever seen. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang **************************************************************************** SMOKE ALARMS SAVE LIVES Go to London Fire at www.london-fire.gov.uk/firesafety This email is confidential to the addressee only. If you do not believe that you are the intended addressee, do not use, pass on or copy it in any way. If you have received it in error, please delete it immediately and telephone the supplied number, reversing the charges if necessary. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Don Kirsch" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 08:25:02 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] women and the martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In regards to the abilities of women in the martial arts. Anyone who thinks women can't defend themselves please go to the next Jackson, Ms get together and go up and grab one of Master West's female black belts. But please find me and tell me first because I want to watch the show! Arts like HapKiDo which require technique and don't rely on upper body strength are ideal for women (or weak old men like me). Happy Holidays to all, Don Kirsch --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 07:08:43 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Bruce Tegner Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....One of Bruce's main contributions to self defense was that he dispelled a lot of the myths about the martial arts and brought realism to the fore again. One of these myths was the myth of the "Black Belt as a superman". In his book Bruce Tegner's Complete Book of Self-Defense he wrote, "Contrary to popular belief, the first black belts were not deadly killers; they were skilled sportsman.............." And IMVVHO I believe this is how he came to be relegated to the martial art "dustbins" of history. Had he pandered more to the exotic, to the myth and to the fantasies of his readership he probably would have gone farther with his books and art. Not having "slant-eyes already put him behind the martial arts knowledge "8-ball". He needed to have a "hook" for getting and keeping a following. Bits such as reporting oneself to be the "first non-Asian 9th dan", or "6-time World Champion of the Asian Games" or "only long-time disciple of....." are all hooks that folks use to get and keep a following, or validate what they teach. Absent these, I bet most folks look at Tegner as a kind of "round-eye wannabee" rather than the able albeit early resource that he was. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 09:38:52 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Woman Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master MAC, Stovall, and others This is the last word from me on woman because; First- it has been blown out of proportion. My comments were never directed toward woman as an attack I was only stating what I remembered from early training. Second- I have been married long enough, and I have two daughters. I have learned when you can't win, so I will not try. I was NOT implying anything toward woman in general, This includes Master Denise, and Master Mac's Sister. I was simply talking about the people I trained with in the early days. I still believe at the bottom line there there is a double standard, as there should be in some cases. For Example; Heavy Weight boxing have separate MEN and Woman fights. Martial arts tournaments have separate men and woman divisions, and lets not talk about the UFC. WHY? I too have female students that can kick the crab out of a bag, as hard as guys in the class or harder. They can defend themselves well, and I am very proud of them. Master West posted he saw me at the Young Zee tournament demonstrate with a female student, I gave her no special treatment because of her gender. So I am not against woman, or trying to be chauvinistic, however sometimes politically correct gets in the way of reality. Like Master Stovall said " No, the average woman is no match for the average man when it comes down to a physical altercation..." Master Mac said no much has changed from the 70's. For me that is not true. When I began, you left every class bruised, beat up, bleeding etc. sparring was full contact with no pads. I saw many people get knocked out in class, get a rib cracked, or a bloody nose. the instructor would just smile as if to say good training. This is not the case now, and although it was brutal it produced some good martial artist, ones that could fight behind the building with no judge or referee to score for them. most woman chose not to endure that kind of training. Master Richards gave a list of female martial artist. These are all great female martial artist I am sure, but how long is the list of men in comparison, and How many men did Kathy Long "Punish" I will agree she must have endured some hard training to fight in the full contact arena. Some training that some men would not have endured. Those in the ATA may know Master Jack Yoder, he was one of the seniors then. he joined ATA after the death of Master John Chu in 1980. His daughter Cynthia trained with use then. I let my wife read my last post and she said I sounded like a jerk, for that I am sorry. I am just a reality based instructor. I do love woman and I respect them. I certainly did not mean to offend any. MY last post on Woman in the martial arts JC --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Tkdsid@aol.com Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 11:50:52 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] washing the belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First of all...we don't keep it long enough to need to wash it. Second, it falls apart with normal washing. I was told too never to wash it. If my black belt ever got soiled, I'd probably dry clean it. I don't like that tattered old look. Now on another note,,,gee whiz I'd wish that my students would wash their dobaks..the smell is unbearable! last...this is a nothing issue! Wash the belt if you'd like...just DON'T even think of washing the flag! I do as my master did, awarding white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, red, red/black and black with a white stripe all before black belt, How dirty could it get?? Sincerely, Sid Rubinfeld --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Johnjfitzg@aol.com Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 11:55:50 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Ray Terry on Red Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net FWIW, my instructor, GM H. K. Lee, said “red signifies a warning for danger” , as well as, other meanings. He was a student of GM Hong Chong Soo and was promoted to dans 1-9 by GM Hong Chong Soo. GM Hong Chong Soo was Moo Duk Kwan. GM Hong Chong Soo led the MDK unification with the KTA without Hwang Kee according “the Modern History of TKD” by Won Sik Kang and Kyong Myong Lee. Having said all that, it does not mean GM Hwang Kee said it , but other MDK people have said it. It is also a Christmas color, Merry Christmas to the DD. John > I must agree with JC wholeheartedly in that KJN Hwang Kee meant for the > belts to represent the seasons. I have never heard the one about danger. I > don't argue that someone may have said this, I simply do not have any info > on Hwang Kee incorporating this into the meaning of the belt colors. What is > taught in the org I belong to is almost 100% the same as Master Cox's. "Could very well be. I was wrong one other time... :) I was simply repeating the meaning of the red belt that came from one of my instructors, who claimed to get it directly from Hwang Kee during his time at the MDK's railroad dojang. Ray Terry" --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Sharon Tkach" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:38:36 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Articles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net More Hapkido articles can be accessed at www.kimshapkido.com. ~Sharon --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest