Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:22:15 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 11 #548 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Cynthia ROthrock (Charles Richards) 2. Re: wtf/ustu school in ks (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 3. The Practice of Practical Practice (A. Boyd) 4. HDGD Thoughts (J R Hilland) 5. Only European (Donnelly, Eamonn) 6. Washing the belt, body and who knows what else (Tkdsid@aol.com) 7. Re: Sword Thrusts (Bruce Sims) 8. Re: Weapons Work (Bruce Sims) 9. Is that a Sword in your pocket? (James E. McHie Jr.) 10. Farcical Pugilists (Brian Beach) 11. Man with cerebral palsy gets black belt (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 19:56:53 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Cynthia ROthrock Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read "Good Sir, No fair ,Sir. You mentioned Cynthia Rothrock and now I won't sleep for a week. For shame, Sir." MC Reply, George, You caught me I own China O'Brien on VHS and have a copy of Stranger with Kathy Long on tape too :-) Be Well, MC --__--__-- Message: 2 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 23:26:18 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: wtf/ustu school in ks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Can anyone suggest a good WTF/USTU school in Overland Park, Kansas? I have a family moving and looking to continue training. Chuck __________________________ hi chuck, i can recommend master john brown and his school, aspire martial arts and fitness. he's at 913-648-6868. excellent instructor :) take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy _www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply _www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 01:56:16 -0500 (EST) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The Practice of Practical Practice Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "The sword is not a practical weapon for modern times." I'm sure people have a good idea of just how often I hear that, usually in the simpler form of "What good is a sword for self-defense?" I've mentioned on the Digest before that I don't think Martial Art equates to Self-Defense. I can see that it is easy to view it that way, especially if you got into MA as a direct result of wanting to be able to use unarmed MA skill to defend yourself. I however, did not, and do not view MA as a means to that sole end. As JC mentioned, the sword is indeed very useful in augmenting existing MA skills such as quality of motion, peripheral awareness, understanding of force application, and tactics. In arts like mine, the study of the sword also deals with how to employ non-weapon attacks in conjunction, so punching, kicking, and redirecting are not left to chance either. I understand though, that this latter material is not a feature of all sword arts. Is it practical? Well, that is the old comparison of apples to oranges, or in this particular case, sword points to knuckles. Quite simply, sword arts are not self-defense arts and should not be compared with them when talking about practical self-defense. They used to be arts of war. Now they are more about man's unfairness to bamboo. I don't study Haidong Gumdo to be adept at protecting myself "on the streets". I do it to further my understanding of the sword and myself. We don't ask soccer players what good their skills are for increasing their batting averages, I don't go around asking Yudo-in how their cutting skills are developing, etc. Martial art does not mean "self-defense" despite the advertising which tells us otherwise. To me, self-defense skills are those that allow you to protect yourself from aggression. Life and death situations belong to another category in my opinion and require different tools and responses. To be clear, it's wildly inappropriate for me to lop the arm off an individual who wants my wallet, but totally appropriate for me to do that to someone who is actively trying to kill me. I don't study the sword in case that happens though. I imagine that tennis players don't do what they do on the off-chance they get to smash someone with a racket "in self-defense" any more than ballerinas are concerned with delivering devastating spinning heel kicks. So, is it practical? We need to decide terms of reference first. For what I want - absolutely. For what someone else wants? That depends on what they want. I'd definitely recommend a sword or halberd art to a person who wanted to gain confidence in themselves, but was not ready to get hands on in the sense that yudo or hapkido requires. I probably wouldn't recommend it to someone who was motivated to do a MA out of a desire for revenge. To reach a little deeper to the possible intent of your question: Can a traditional weapon art be made useful for a student seeking self-defense skills? I believe that they can, but there's a "but" attached. There needs to be an awareness of the desire for self-defense, and the instructor has to ensure they are drilling the student appropriately to take and deliver solid hits, and get more than passingly acquainted with high-speed introductions to the ground. Tactically speaking, the weapons arts are alreadyu equipped to transmit correct principles for encounters. I'm curious about what others will have to say on this. This has almost been a sword "theme week." ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 01:01:17 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] HDGD Thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: <<>> That is how I first heard of HDGD. When we first moved to the Cincinnati area 7 years ago, I met a bunch of kukki-taekwondo folks who had various black belt ranking from attending a HDGD seminar (the same traveling group that Bruce mentioned). At the time I had over 20 years under my belt in the sword arts and we went to play. Needless to say, they did not even know how to hold a sword. But they had the paper! But don't worry, I continue to be amazed at the number of people who are hapkido yudanja with little or no real experience in the art, I guess they did not want to bother with actually learning the art. So you are not alone Anthony. It is just as silly as having rank in an art from watching video tapes. Of course, you can get a Ph.D. out of a mail order catalog. That mail order Ph.D. is also worthless, but on the surface, may look the same as Dakin's Ph.D., for example (which he really earned by attending classes at a real university). Anthony, I read you post about the way modern Korea test gup rank. It was not always that way. That is why many of us in the USA are not that way. To make a long boring story even shorter, when I started out as a white belt in 74 in Texas, we had to attend etiquette and terminology classes for a month before we could even put on a dobok and a white belt or attend our first beginners class. True! My wife went through the same thing when she started out in 84 under a different Koran national. A chodan is no longer what it once was in some circles, but not all. Jere R. Hilland Fargo, ND www.rrhapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Donnelly, Eamonn" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:48:04 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Only European Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Snip "Lets be honest and admit that in some European cultures people who do not have a penis between their legs have been, and probably will be discriminated against." End snip Only European cultures Bruce ???? NB "I let my wife read my last post and she said I sounded like a jerk, for that I am sorry." Sheer Class, Thank you JC for reminding us it is ok to admit you are human Best Wishes to all Dojang members and your loved ones (especially Master Terry, thank-you) Eamonn Confidentiality Note: The information in this electronic mail ("e-mail") message may be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by privilege, work product immunity or other applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient the retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you receive this electronic mail ("e-mail") in error please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0) 24 7686 2000 or by e-mail at postmaster@cel-international.com. Thank you. Registered in England No. 3877626 Registered Office 256 Foleshill Road Coventry CV6 5AB --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 07:35:23 -0500 From: Tkdsid@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Washing the belt, body and who knows what else Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As for rules...I've made it a point to say to kids that for each promotion that must be able to recite the tenents of Taekwondo as well as the dojang rules. Will they demonstrate indominable spirt? About 2% maybe...will they show respect to each other? About 80%...will they wah their dobaks? About 95%...BUT the 5% that don't stink the place up! The aggregate of the above pay the bills too! I can conjole, instruct and insist but values take a long time to inculcate. SR --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:13:42 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sword Thrusts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Anthony: "..... Seems to be a strange target you have chosen to represent the torso, but perhaps it'll be clearer to me when I get the pipe... and a fence post......." Sorry about my selection of materials for this experiment. The use of PVC pipe rather than a cloth or foam target is to try to isolate the penetrating aspect relative to the vector of force behind it. In this case the goal is to witness the degree to which the tip of the sword "grabs" the target as compared to the probability that the sword blade will glance-off to this side or that. As far as left-handed or right-handed-ness were we talking about a jian I think you would be absolutely correct. In dealing with a two-handed thrust with a dao, however, the stipulation of "..with the right hand" or ".... with the left hand" becomes problematic. The rule of thumb in HwaRang Kum-Bup is that energy is imparted with the left-hand and guidance rendered by the right hand. Put all of the information of this paragraph together and the writing in the MYTBTJ becomes a non sequiter. Therefore it behooves us to study the material, dialogue with each other, ask our teachers and hopefully come to a viable understanding about what has been recorded. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:33:34 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Weapons Work Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear JC: "....What I mean is, For Example; The Sword. I love to watch a skilled swordsman train. The art aspect is amazing. I also believe that some of the skills learned from that type of training will lend itself to other areas, but I don't see many people walking around with a sword in their pocket. I don't say this to be negative toward the practice of traditionalist......" I probably advocate for the study of traditional Korean martial art more ardantly than most. In turn I arguably get more grief for my studies than most. The Japanese would say that that "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down." :-) All the same I continue to advocate for the practice of Korean traditions and equal time for their Chinese influences. Your post seems to raise the issue of "why" one would want to focus on such practice. For me I can readily see three sound reasons. 1.) The practice of weapons relates to empty-hand material and vice-versa. Gen Qi noted this all the way bdack in the 16th century, and the view has not dimmed with age. We can train without weapons and find our armed skills to improve and we can train with weapons and find our empty-hand skills improve. MUST one do this? No. Its simply an option which has its foundation in Korean tradition and traditionalists like myself choose to maintain and promote it. 2.) One of the Hapkido pathes is to practice the art as a MU-Do or Martial Way. Philosophically this has little to do with weapons, but practically it is one way that people identify what they do and how they do it. For practiioners such as myself, or groups such as the Yon Mu Kwan / World Hapkido Federation the incorporation of weapons into Hapkido practice rounds-out the curriculum and helps to acknowledge the connection of a heavily Japanese-influenced practice to the Korean military traditions. 3.) One other aspect is to provide a venue for the maintanence and promotion of weapons systems which might otherwise slip into oblivion. For instance, as it stands now there are relatively few who practice Korean staff. To an even lesser degree there are fewer yet who may practice all three kinds of Korean staff including staff, stick and cudgeol. In like manner there are few people who practice Korean spear, and probably an infintessmal number who practice all of the four kinds of Korean spear including Long Spear, Flag Spear, Triple Tip and Multiple Tip spears. You mentioned swords and here you touch a subject which is a personal favorite. Most practitioners, however, stop their training with the Ye-do-- loosely termed a "short sword" and ignore or forget that there are four other sword architectures. Whatever the tradition that one chooses to follow in the Hapkido arts, somewhere along the line there is a tip of the hat to weapons, even if its only the use of a stick or cane. I promote the idea of recognizing the importance of a range of Korean weapons as part of our responsibility to caring after the traditions that have been entrusted to us. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 12:02:25 -0500 From: "James E. McHie Jr." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Is that a Sword in your pocket? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net --------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gladewater SooBahkDo" To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 21:45:16 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Practical Weapons Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net " . . . . but I don't see many people walking around with a sword in their pocket." ---------------------------------------------------------------- Ever read any of the Hapkido books by a guy named Master Choe out of the Pacific Northwest? A few years ago he got put away for manslaughter over a business dispute using . . . . a sword. http://www.kingcountyjournal.com/sited/story/html/56174 Of course, this was right outside his school, but to me falls under the category of "you never know . . . " I don't know what the parole period is, but he was sentenced in mid 2001 to 9 1/2 years. I did get in touch with the reporter at one point a couple years ago now, but couldn't find any additonal information on the incident, such as what each side claimed happened. I like his books, and have to wonder about the irony of his falling victim to the same kind of momentary carelessness he advises so strongly to watch out for in his book on black belt studies . . . "People make mistakes in their lives whether it's a trifle or a blunder, but the mistake result occasionally leaves a permanent stain upon their reputation and makes a failure of their life. A momentary carelessness may ruin your precious prospects." Of course, in the same book he had a section on goal-setting where he quoted the American proverb "There is a good fish in the sea as ever came of it." Jim --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Brian Beach Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:08:48 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Farcical Pugilists Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ran across this thought it might be of some interest. Acrobatics, no contact sparing, spinning back fist - guess there's nothing new under the sun. Its 3 MB. http://memory.loc.gov/mbrs/edmp/4023.mpg CREATED/PUBLISHED United States : Edison Manufacturing Co., [1894] SUMMARY From Raff & Gammon price list: Farcical pugilists in costume. 15.00. NOTES Copyright: no reg. Performers: Glenroy Brothers. Camera, William Heise. Duration: 0:18 at 30 fps. Filmed October 6, 1894, in Edison's Black Maria studio. I might try to work in that blocking lift into my repertoire :) Brian Beach --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 13:18:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Man with cerebral palsy gets black belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Man with cerebral palsy gets black belt in a martial art By CYNTHIA GREENLEE-DONNELL The Herald-Sun Durham, NC Dec 20, 2004 : 7:55 pm ET CREEDMOOR -- At Durham Tang Soo Do martial-arts school, students in white pajama-like outfits raise their fists in front of their waists. Dressed in the same gleaming dobok as the rest of the class, 26-year-old Michael J. Simpson of Oxford lifts his crutches instead. Those crutches once were the main support for Simpson, who has cerebral palsy and learning disabilities. Today, they are his defensive tools. In September, Simpson earned his first-degree black belt in tang soo do, a Korean martial art similar to taekwondo. To attain that rank, he broke a wood board and took an oral version of the exam that includes Korean terms for movements. "He cannot write or read, but he can do this karate," said his mother, Janaf Bunch. "He gets all tore up if I'm sick or can't drive him here. He starts calling his cousins, saying, 'Can you drive me to class?' " Simpson earned his black belt in slightly more than three years. Durham Tang Soo Do co-owner Larry Robinson, a fifth-degree black belt, said the fastest students usually earn their first-degree black belt in 2.5 years. "I've achieved a lot in three years," Simpson said. "I'd like to see other people with my disabilities try it. Anybody, if they're not real sure about themselves, this would give them the confidence to do whatever. But I couldn't have done it without my mother and my teachers. It's just like an extended family at the school." Simpson heard about tang soo do from Robinson's wife, Pam, who works in the dental practice he goes to. Three years ago, Simpson's weight had ballooned to more than 230 pounds. And, since he'd had five surgeries on his legs, Bunch worried that he'd soon be unable to walk. "He'd lost his ability to be active, sitting at home," Bunch said. "We picked this karate so he could get exercise. I said, 'I don't care if you don't teach him anything,' but I wanted him to lose weight and get that interaction that he didn't get being in a self-contained classroom [with other disabled students]." "I never did lack confidence," Simpson said. "I figured if I could graduate and get my diploma, I could do a sport." At first barely able to lift his feet, he can kick his legs and is 90 pounds lighter today. Simpson had been a Special Olympian for 11 years, collecting shoeboxes of prize ribbons. Now the family game room is home to 16 trophies for tang soo do, perhaps Simpson's favorite topic of conversation. The black belt is really midnight blue, he explained, because "in Korea, black means death." The half-yell, half-grunt he does is called the ki-hop, he explained. It's meant to harness energy -- and unsettle opponents. For the Robinsons, who also run a school in Durham's Penrith Apartments, the challenge was how to adapt their form for Simpson. They'd had students with high blood pressure but never someone with Michael's physical limitations. They consulted tang soo do grandmaster Jae Joon Kim of Brandon, Fla., who told them, "You can teach somebody in a wheelchair, as long as he can [move] his hands." The Robinsons taught Michael he could use one crutch as support, while making the sport's ritualized movements with the other. Those gestures mimic proper tang soo do form, so that "anybody who knows the form can see what Michael's doing," Robinson said. "It was important to teach him how to do it with the crutches. If someone ever attacked him, that's what he'd be fighting with. "You don't know how many times we've said, 'I wish I had those sticks,' " he added. Simpson has padded crutches, and he's learned how to use them without hurting his partners. But at competitions, there are few disabled athletes he can spar with. Still, he has no shortage of friends. His Durham Tang Soo Do classmates soon figured out he's just another student trying to excel -- though he may move or speak a little slowly. "Maybe, it was the first or second time Michael came to class," Robinson said. "Some of the other students kept looking at him. It didn't bother him, but it bothered me. "Finally, I said, 'Stop. Michael, will you tell us something about yourself?' He explained [cerebral palsy], and by the end of class, people were saying, 'Good job, Michael.' " Second-degree black-belt Angie Meeks said watching Simpson helps her forget her painful pinched nerve and get over occasional discouragement. "If you ever tell him to do something, he will just try," she said. "He's got a disability and I don't. It makes me push myself harder." During their first class together, they did something very simple, and Simpson fell back, Meeks said. "We were petrified," she said. "I went to go and help him. He said, 'No, no, no.' " If there's an edge that Simpson has, it's that he's not afraid to tumble. "Sometimes we learn to take falls," he said. "But I've been falling all my life." --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest