Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:03:38 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #25 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. fees and dan ranks (Brian Beach) 2. Re: Fees, etc. (J R Hilland) 3. Fee's (michael tomlinson) 4. RE: Fees (per Bruce Sims) (Jeff Yeagley) 5. Dan Fees (Charles Richards) 6. Sa Ja Nim 2 (Charles Richards) 7. Re: Fees (Bruce Sims) 8. RE: Fee's (Thomas Gordon) 9. RE: Fees (Roger Lewis) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Brian Beach Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:43:43 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] fees and dan ranks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Bruce, This is the way our dojang is set up. With the caveat that we teach classes (usually Kids class) and 1 night a week we have Black Belt Class and usually some instruction (in the form of- Hey, can you go over this with me again) after the regular class for those willing or able to stick around. The basic philosophy is that it is now truly our "Home" and we should have a vested interest in its success, a sense of ownership if you will. We have a couple dans disappear but most take pride in "our" dojang. Brian On Jan 19, 2005, at 11:21 AM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > Reading the last few posts I was struck by a thought > and wanted to toss it out for feedback. > > Regarding fee policies, I wonder what people would say > about having monthly and testing fees for gueppies > only. Dan ranks would only pay test fees but no > monthly fees. I have a couple of philosophical > reasons for this but wondered what people thought of > the overall policy. Comments? > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:13:56 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Fees, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wow! Why would someone keep going to class if they are not learning anything new at all at any level? I gather by your question/comment that there are MA or instructors that only teach a very small curriculum and are finished by chodan??? I was told in broken English when I obtained my chodan back in the 70's, that I was "now to be taken seriously as a student". It turned out to be true. <<>> --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:20:26 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Fee's Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I personally have only one dan ranked student in the school that doesn't pay.. he helps me teach and has been working out with me for 6 to 7 years... he is an assistant instructor and knows quite a lot...personally I don't believe in letting dan ranks come for free. Hey if they are learning then the light bill and the monthly rent doesn't stop because they are in the class.... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Jeff Yeagley" To: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:09:38 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Fees (per Bruce Sims) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> My instructors policy was that after a student earned black belt, they were now "family". As such, they did not pay for lessons. They did however still pay testing fees. I have followed his policy since I opened my own dojang in 1983. Sincerely, Jeff Yeagley Chief Instructor Academy of Fighting Arts Business Phone: 816-525-5555 Email: jeff.yeagley@wetrainharder.com Web: http://www.wetrainharder.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:02:08 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan Fees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I once had the idea that Dan's would not pay dues and help out once a week teaching class. Then I thought about a model that one class taught was equal to one class attended so that Dans could have no monthly fees. But ultimately, being rather pigheaded, simplistic and lazy I decided not to have gray areas, but clear distinctions. 1. you train you pay. That makes you my client and me obligated to give you service (i.e. even dans are learning or they shouldn't pay if I don't provide service. No "you teach for me this week and next week when blackbelt class is scheduled I go on vacation"). 2. There are no volunteers only employees. Dans that teach for me have an employer-employee relationship and can be delt with in that manner on those issues. 3. Not all blackbelts have any potential or desire to teach others. Therefore I allow folks to train up through 3rd Dan without teaching. They of course pay tuition and of course learn new material. To me a master instructor (4th-6th) dan is an instructor. Neh? So if you have no desire to share with others, what do you really need a 4th dan certificate for. I know some open tournament folk who have been 2nd or 3rd dans for ten years while enjoying state or national champion status.... Just the ramblings of a grey bearded one, MC --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:08:58 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Sa Ja Nim 2 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Friends, It's official, the Moja Kwan dynasty has begun. Niko Sa Ja Nim attended his third non-competative sparring scrimage and completed 4 matches before it was time to play with the baby sitter :-) this past Sunday. Monday night as is Richards family tradition Angelica Sa Ja Nim received her dobohk as a third birthday present. Not only was she very excited. She was extremely focussed. Even did a waist height front kick with her toes pulled back. Stay tuned to see which one will become the supreme eternal grandmaster of the Kwan :-) MC --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:54:00 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Fees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the feedback. You have mentioned a couple of points. One is that Dan ranks seemed to get pressed into service teaching gueppies. Another is that sometimes, especially in Independent schools, once a person makes 1st Dan they have pretty much learned the lions' share of the curriculum and the rest is refinement. I can say that this is not the way things swing where I teach but it is something I have heard a lot of, specially from the TKD ranks, it seems. Some of the other points that come to mind are the following. In the University setting, the revenues generated by the undergrads are cultivated so that the more dedicated or committed Grads and Dr's can have revenues through which to pursue their studies and research. In this way Under-grads who may only be there just for the Assts Degree or BA or BS contribute to the greater efforts of the University. Another point is that the gueppies have a relatively higher rate of turn-over. I don't know about other people but I DO get tired re-teaching and re-teaching the same material and enjoy being able to work with the higher ranking belts. IF the gueppies are going to have higher turn-over and the dans lesser turnover, I think dropping the tuition for the Dan ranks might be one more encouragement to keep them around. The Gueppies are going to rotate as they will, but not everone makes it to dan rank and I would focus on retaining THEM. Lastly, I have this idea that if the dans understand the correct framing for the role of money in maintaining the teaching, perhaps they could be encouraged to put together fund-raising using their own resources. Lets face it, we are always talking about getting students who sooner or later want to strike-out on their own. What better way to get them to face the realities of running their own school than to make them privy to having to help with keeping the school going as active participants. Just reaching into their checkbook (like to pay a tuition) won't be a viable alternative when they are wanting to run their own show later, right? Thoughts? Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Fee's Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:05:53 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My father did work for many people either free or at a small fee. One day I got angry with him because I knew one of the people was taking advantage of his graciousness. So I asked him, "One day you are going to retire. How many of these people that you've helped along the way going to come back and say, 'Hey, you helped me out when I was down. Here's $50 towards your retirement.'?" My father looked at me a bit shocked and said "None!" And there you have it, a person has the right AND obligation to get their retirement in order. Obligation in the sense that a person shouldn't knowingly go into their golden years without making arrangements as to not being a burden on their children. I love my parents and speak to my mother every morning on the way to work (proudly a "momma's boy"). And I fully expect the day will come that I have to help with their daily needs as my parents did for their parents. However, worrying about them being able to make a house payment shouldn't be a concern of their children. Worrying about them falling down and breaking a hip is concern enough. Or worrying about my dad who seems determined that he can do remodeling and yard work like he was 20 years old. (He's in his mid 70's) When things are broken down in the most basic of senses, regardless of doctor, school teacher, martial artist, or ditch digger....all ANY of us have is TIME. Being self employed, time is critical to me. There are four schools in my town of about 20K. We are the second highest with an ATA school charging a good bit more than we do. The next down from me charges about half what we do. When someone asks me why I can't charge a lower rate like one of less expensive schools, my can reply is, "Surely Mr. so-n-so knows how much their services are worth." We run a first class facility with a 5th, 4th, and 3rd degree instructors. I'm no Master West or Master Timmerman but I do try to offer the best possible service and a reasonable price. We do have "scholarships" but I am very, very cautious about them. When I sit in my lawyers office at $175 a hour and walk out with nothing tangible in my hands, or in a doctor's office that I have to wait 3 hours to get my 10 minutes with the doctor so they can treat me like livestock (that gets to pay huge rates for the privilege), or a local plumbing company charging $120 a hour...I just can't see being apologetic for charging $60-120 a month for 3-5 classes a week that may very well save someone's life, make them better rounded people, and all the other positive attributes of martial arts that I won't bore you all with. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 9 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Roger Lewis Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:08:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Fees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wanted to share this thought regarding fees. My TSD club in North Carolina charges whatever fee level you are charged at the time of your first dan testing "for life." In my case, it's $40 per month; in my son's case who just tested for 1st dan, it is $60. New student pay the current rate. IMHO, it encourages remaining with the club and promotes long term commitment without contracts. We do pay testing fees for dan testing, but not gup testing. A previous TKD school I attended charged $140/month - with a three year contract. Just sharing in the spirit of openness. Roger 2nd Dan TSD Message: 3 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 04:53:54 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Fees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reading the last few posts I was struck by a thought and wanted to toss it out for feedback. Regarding fee policies, I wonder what people would say about having monthly and testing fees for gueppies only. Dan ranks would only pay test fees but no monthly fees. I have a couple of philosophical reasons for this but wondered what people thought of the overall policy. Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest