Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 03:04:19 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #26 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1800 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Fees for gups / black belts (Kickin' Family) 2. RE: Sa Ja Nim 2 (Denise) 3. RE: Re: Fees (Rick Clark) 4. RE: Taekwondo @ 57 (another long article) (CStovall@nucorar.com) (John Vanderhee) 5. Re: Fees (David Beck) 6. Fees (Charles Richards) 7. fee's (michael tomlinson) 8. Golden State TKD Chips (Ray Terry) 9. RE: Fee's (Damian Adams) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Kickin' Family" To: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:50:09 -0600 Organization: Kickin' Family Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Fees for gups / black belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings, sir... Good question... First let me say that as a 2nd dan, I do pay tuition... As for whether or not a dan rank should pay, I think that's up to the instructor. My guess is that if the black belt teaches, helps with class, does front desk work, keeps the school clean, etc. (in other words "pulls their own weight"), the instructor might be more lenient about tuition... However, if they are "just there to train" and that's it, perhaps not... Another school of thought is that dan ranks should pay MORE tuition, because of the level of teaching required and fine tuning of technique (more so than with low gups)... Of course, the flip side of that is, a good dan rank should pick up the nuances being taught quicker, right... :) OK, did I really say anything above? I don't think so... :-) **bows** - Bert Edens Springdale, Arkansas -----Original Message----- Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Fees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reading the last few posts I was struck by a thought and wanted to toss it out for feedback. Regarding fee policies, I wonder what people would say about having monthly and testing fees for gueppies only. Dan ranks would only pay test fees but no monthly fees. I have a couple of philosophical reasons for this but wondered what people thought of the overall policy. Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Denise" To: Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:20:06 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Sa Ja Nim 2 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Stay tuned to see which one will become the supreme eternal grandmaster of the Kwan :-) Oh, Master Richards, I do hope I live long enough to witness the outcome of this Moja Kwan descendancy, ascendancy, whatever . . . one of them will end up in charge and will be darned good at it, too! Denise --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Fees Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:46:07 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bruce, I have had the great opportunity to travel around the US and quite a few places around the world teaching seminars, and have been able to talk to a large cross section of ranks and backgrounds. Admittedly, those I see are probably from a section of the martial arts that are willing to train outside of their group and who are interested in cross training with instructors outside their own school or association. > Thanks for the feedback. You have mentioned a couple > of points. > One is that Dan ranks seemed to get pressed into > service teaching gueppies. This seems to be universal in some form or another. It is something that I think is valuable to the younger dan ranks. They get to find out it's not as easy as they think it is, and it forces them to find ways to teach a technique not just show something and expect white belts can follow along. > Another is that sometimes, > especially in Independent schools, once a person makes > 1st Dan they have pretty much learned the lions' share > of the curriculum and the rest is refinement. I can > say that this is not the way things swing where I > teach but it is something I have heard a lot of, > specially from the TKD ranks, it seems. It's been my experience that by they time a person gets to 1st dan they have learned the lions share of a system. Are there kicks, punches, blocks, throws, locks, chokes, etc. they have not seen or been taught? As an example in Shotokan most of the folks I run into know all of the kata at 1st dan level - are they as polished as a 5th dan? No of course not but then they have a few years to get to that level. But they do know the system. > > Some of the other points that come to mind are the > following. > > Another point is that the gueppies have a relatively > higher rate of turn-over. I don't know about other > people but I DO get tired re-teaching and re-teaching > the same material and enjoy being able to work with > the higher ranking belts. I can truly relate to this point - for a new black belt it is a great opportunity to learn how to teach and for the senior instructor to get a break from teaching the same stuff we have taught for 20, 30, or more years. I know from the point of view of new students they want to have the senior instructor teaching them, but there has to be a way for new black belts to begin to learn how to teach. >IF the gueppies are going to > have higher turn-over and the dans lesser turnover, I > think dropping the tuition for the Dan ranks might be > one more encouragement to keep them around. The > Gueppies are going to rotate as they will, but not > everone makes it to dan rank and I would focus on > retaining THEM. I agree there is a high turn over rate and keeping dan ranks is a priority. BUT - in my experience money is not necessarily a motivating factor. I would like to make a point with a quick story not martial arts related: I used to own a night club, and would give away popcorn free (yes it had a lot of salt to make you thirsty). At the end of the night there was popcorn all over the place, people would throw it, spill it, or just leave it. I started to charge a quarter for it and you know what - we had very little popcorn on the floor at the end of the night. People respect what they pay for and have little respect or give value to that which they get for free. People value things they have to pay for, if it's given free they have little respect for what they get. To push this point a bit farther the more a person pays for something the more value they perceive they are getting. Just look a cars for example. You can spend thousands of dollars on a car, all of them get you where you are going some just cost a whole lot more than others. Are they better than the less expensive ones? Probably, are they worth the extra money - that's a personal decision:-) Back to martial arts - the dan grades if they don't pay may feel what they are getting is of no value, but if they continue to pay I suspect they will consider they are getting something for their money - if they are being taught and are not being taken for granted. > > Lastly, I have this idea that if the dans understand > the correct framing for the role of money in > maintaining the teaching, perhaps they could be > encouraged to put together fund-raising using their > own resources. Perhaps I am wrong - but I think people understand that to rent space you have to pay, you have to pay for electricity, water, insurance, etc. If they don't then its possible to let them be aware of these "facts of life". > Lets face it, we are always talking > about getting students who sooner or later want to > strike-out on their own. What better way to get them > to face the realities of running their own school than > to make them privy to having to help with keeping the > school going as active participants. Just reaching > into their checkbook (like to pay a tuition) won't be > a viable alternative when they are wanting to run > their own show later, right? Thoughts? Comments? If you have a student who wants to go out on their own and teach, why not have a program that they are aware of that will offer this opportunity to them? Help them set up their own school, in a YMCA or some other venue that does not require a large expenditure of money. Offer them what help they need to run a club and keep them with your own group. They can then learn how to run a club, get some idea on income and expense, and gain a better appreciation of the real world. Who knows they may want to quit teaching that venue and you can turn it over to another new black belt. Rick Clark > > Best Wishes, > > Bruce > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list, 1800 members > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "John Vanderhee" To: Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:43:58 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Taekwondo @ 57 (another long article) (CStovall@nucorar.com) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm 28 and the exercises in this article are great. I will use them also Thanks for the info!!!!! -----Original Message----- Message: 7 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:07:02 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Taekwondo @ 57 (another long article) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:37:28 -0800 (PST) From: David Beck To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Fees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think it makes more sense to charge Dan ranks training fees and not testing fees than the other way around. When they are training, they are using the facilities and thus should contribute to the expenses (rent, utilities, etc). While there are a few expenses associated with testing they don't amount to much, mainly the cost of a belt. However, in most situations test fees are a major part of an organizations funding, and if you're going through an organization for certification you have to pay their fees. That makes it hard to make it free for your Dan ranks. So what I do is somewhere in the middle. I'm not a full-timer (teach 3x a week) so I rarely need one of my black belts to teach. But if they are training and teaching occasionally I charge half price training fees. If they are not teaching occasionally I charge full price. And on test fees I make it the organization's test fee + $100. ===== David N. Beck dnbeck@beckmartialarts.com http://www.beckmartialarts.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:13:44 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Fees Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Roger, I am similar if you go month to month you are subject to any increase... People on yearly agreements can always renew at the old price as long as they don't leave. If you leave, you get the new price when you come back. I have 6 folks that are still on the "charter" pricing from 3 years ago when we moved from a gym to our own storefront. They are paying the old "gym" rate. I also have 3 Project Action Foundation scholars for which I receive $150/quarter. These funds are used to pay for gear and local tournaments so that it is not apparent to other students who the scholarship recipients are. What little is left over each quarter goes towards the dojang overhead. I am by actions sitting on the fence about teaching for free. However, I set the scholarship limit at 10% of active students count, and the scholars are "obligated" in that there is a strict educational and attendance requirement. Thomas, Amen brother! Stay Well, MC --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:51:57 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] fee's Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Very nice post Mr. Thomas Gordan...you laid it out like a new quilt... Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:59:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Golden State TKD Chips Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 9th Annual Golden State Open Tae Kwon Do Championships Saturday, March 26 Poomse, kyoroogi, team poomse, team breaking competitions California Sate University Los Angeles, CA For more info call 626.286.6500. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:36:33 +1030 From: Damian Adams To: Dojang Digest Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Fee's Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, instead of letting them go out completely on their own (throwing them in the deep end) per se, it is always possible to throw them in half way. By this I mean let them open up a new branch under your own school. You still maintain control over the curriculum and gradings. In regards to money, you get any membership joining fees, uniform fees and grading fees. The Dan who runs the branch gets to keep any of the monthly tuition fees from their own students but they are responsible for paying the hall rental and are responsible for getting their own students (eg advertising etc). To ensure that they are keeping their own skills up to date and representing your school in the best possible fashion, they are allowed to come and train with you for free when they are not teaching their own classes. Damian Adams. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest