Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 07:47:35 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #40 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1900 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: BLACK BELTS (Thomas Gordon) 2. T. Walker on pushups (George Peters) 3. RE: BLACK BELTS (Master Mark Seidel) 4. Re: Black Belts (Richard Tomlinson) (Raymond Navarro) 5. Re: BLACK BELTS (Divetony@aol.com) 6. Re: Black Belt Exodus (Bruce Sims) 7. Goals (J. R. West) 8. Why Black Belts Quit (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 9. Re: Re: Black Belt Exodus (Ray Terry) 10. RE: Re: Black Belt Exodus (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] BLACK BELTS Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:00:38 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For us, from the about once a month, I remind the students that black belt merely means they are trainable. Sure, some will get their black belt and quit but I helped get the mindset that the real training has yet to begin. For retention, I offer black belt only classes about twice a month which is done at no charge and for black belts only. Another way of retention is midterms. We don't charge for the midterm so it's not a "profit center." Let's say you require a minimum of a two year wait for 2nd to 3rd degree. I word it like this, "We require a minimum of two years of active training between 2nd and 3rd degree. Every six months, you will do a midterm at no charge during the high belt testing." A person can't really fail a midterm but it does give them something to shoot for. Finally, we are a rather new school but we do a lot of seminars with guests. Black belts appreciate the opportunity to train with these people. So far, those two ideas have worked well for us. Hope that helps. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 01:16:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] T. Walker on pushups Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good Sir, Is this the carpet at home or in the dojang?lol Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Master Mark Seidel" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] BLACK BELTS Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:26:59 -0500 Organization: The Midtown Academy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sandy Sometimes it is the realization that they have only learned what the tools are and not how to build the house. 1st degree Black Belt has been trumped up to be the top. "wow you're a black belt bet you could kick 5 guys buts in a bar" as we all know very few black belts ever learn to fight to defend, they learn to spar with rules. Hence they come to terms with their own realities and quit. Solution be truthful and tell students that it takes many years and hard work and sometime cross style training to have that confidence. Also make sure the black belt classes are geared towards building the house not teaching the color belts as many new BB become instructors far too soon and feel they are being taken advantage of by teaching for free yet still paying tuition. Master Mark Seidel Martial Arts /PE Program The Midtown Academy http://www.midtownacademy.org -----Original Message----- From: Richard Tomlinson [mailto:edandmikes@goes.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 2:55 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] BLACK BELTS I thought I'd throw this one out to see what opinions folks may have.... Does anyone who operates a school have a situation where a certian percentage of people, once they have gotten their black belts quit? And as instructors, any input on why this is, suggestions to help prevent? Let's rule out the "Bored" with the program since any good school will have good black belt classes..... sandy --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 04:50:56 -0800 (PST) From: Raymond Navarro To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belts (Richard Tomlinson) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sandy There can be a few reasons why a student when achieving BB to quit, one micht be because after their BB test they stop learning (could be because they have notised that when others at BB are not being tought) also that the student gets told to teach class and they get no chance to learn with the BB group, could be that the student feels that when is a BB feels beter than the teacher or the older BB's.  Keep the students at BB level training and elarn new lesons, let them teach the mid level color belts once in a while could be an option to keep them at large. A lot of shools have BB class once a week or even once a month and this might get them bored with the mood that at that point they want to get to be more active so teach them daily. The truth is you or the Teacher of that school might better introspect (look inside) him or herself and ask him or herself what he or she think that should be done or was is not being done in their school so that if it were him or her in that school would like to have done for them as BB's to stay there. My main sugestion is that the Teacher or Instructor has had signs for the reason that that has been happening and it the instructor or teacher is not paying attention to them signs. Also, ask the BB group to have a meeting to ask them what could they tell you the Teacher or Instructor find out what is the reason that they might say is that reason and mainly get in touch with the BB students that have quit to have a meeting with you, the Teacher or Instructor or have this meting personally with that person. Hope if it is in your school that you get to find the individual answer for the solution for you as a person and profecional. Good luck; HAP ! Ramon Navarro           &nbs p;            &nb sp;            &n bsp;            & nbsp;                           ;            &nbs p;            &nb sp;            &n bsp;   HapKiDo SabomNim           &nb sp;            &n bsp;            & nbsp;                           ;            &nbs p;            &nb sp;            &n bsp;        Song Moo HapKiDo           &nbs p;            &nb sp;            &n bsp;            & nbsp;                           ;            &nbs p;            &nb sp;         Panama City Panama PS/ might simply be that that is the goal they have, be a BB but from the time they started until the time they got their BB they should have allready have the time in training to had their mind shange that thought 2. BLACK BELTS (Richard Tomlinson) Message: 2 From: "Richard Tomlinson" To: Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:54:43 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] BLACK BELTS Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I thought I'd throw this one out to see what opinions folks may have.... Does anyone who operates a school have a situation where a certian percentage of people, once they have gotten their black belts quit? And as instructors, any input on why this is, suggestions to help prevent? Let's rule out the "Bored" with the program since any good school will have good black belt classes..... sandy   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get a web-based email for life now ---> http://mail.hapkidokr.org --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Divetony@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:07:43 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: BLACK BELTS Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 2/2/2005 7:02:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: I have heard of this and I am now beginning to understand that it might not be a bad thing if a 1st Dan branches out to a different martial art. Learning a variety of styles, techniques, etc not only keeps the interest of the student but also develops a well rounded artist. I've posted here before so if this sounds old skip it. I moved 6 months ago 2 days after passing my Black Belt test in a WTF school. After months of searching for a WTF or other good TKD school (in my opinion) in my new area I was disappointed to find out there weren't any, (maybe I'll open my own someday...that's another story). Anyway I found a small Karate school in town , I was drawn to it by my impression of the students and most of all the respect and good words they had about the owner and Master. First of all his view of my black belt was that even though it was not the style taught at this school (kyoshin Ryu and kenpo karate) I would be allowed to wear my black belt until I was able to earn theirs. His thoughts are out of respect for the belt and the work it took to earn it. So far the style of joint locks, throws , etc are very foreign to my TKD training so I am in effect starting over but it is not the same training I have been doing for years. I think this is a good thing, I see elements of TKD in the defenses and I am able to execute them but I am glad I trained in TKD first, it gave me a good foundation to build on. I have not sparred with them yet but I will have to concentrate on covering my head as I saw that punching to the head and face is acceptable. I know this was long winded but bottom line is the Black Belt is only the beginning and there are always opportunities out there to keep on learning. There really is no end unless you want there to be. Tony T --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 06:23:11 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Sandy: ".....Does anyone who operates a school have a situation where a certian percentage of people, once they have gotten their black belts quit? And as instructors, any input on why this is, suggestions to help prevent? Let's rule out the "Bored" with the program since any good school will have good black belt classes....." Excuse me, but is this a trick question? Have you not been keeping up on current events? Maybe you have just come out of a coma after a sound sleep for, say, four decades, yes? Did John Graden suggest you ask this? ( :-) ) Let me see......... We have approaches to KMA which include selling rank and standing, manditory testing over contrived and inflated curriculum. We have derelict, incompetent, misrepresented, avaricious leadership. We have a preponderance of folks seeking the easiest, cheapest and least-demanding approach to the KMA. We have people who would rather invent "new" Korean arts rather than fully learn the authentic arts, or failing that, will cherry-pick what it is that they will and will not study. And don't be too quick to assume that "most schools have good Black Belt classes." Fact is that many if not most schools have little or no idea what to do with Black Belts except to shovel more variations of Guep material at them. And your question speaks to what---- whether or not there are people who are superficial enough in their commitment to their training that they drop-out just about the moment that real growth and development starts? Gee, what were the chances of that? Regards, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "J. R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:37:25 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Goals Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > One friend that ran a Taekwondo dojang used the slogan, "Our Goal is > Blackbelt".He used it heavily. It was painted on the walls of the school. > Reinforced during each gup testing. Was on every handout. Then he wondered > why most of his students left the school after they reached 1st Dan. That is a commonly used phrase that initiates a common result..."Blacbelt is my goal...Got it....see ya!" The goal we use in class is....... "come to the next class"! J.R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:43:39 -0600 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Why Black Belts Quit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sandy, I think that there are a number of factors. I know that I have some students that get a cho dan just in time to head off to college, and they let their training fall by the wayside in all the rush to establish a new life in college. But by and large I think that most people tend to set that BB in their mind as a goal. When they get there, things begin to slow down. Testing frequency goes from every few months to years, at least in my case. And I don't cover as much new material as going back and improving on the basics, at least in the beginning. I think it is tough for a lot of students to refocus on another goal without help. I also think we forget to explain to these black belts that they are very likely going to have valleys between the peaks, where they may not feel motivated to go to class or continue training. I talked to a group of black belt candidates for my org's region last year at black belt camp. There were at least 2 people who had reached 1st dan in another style and stopped training soon after, before coming to our org and beginning again. I could see a few light bulbs turn on. Afterwards, one of the candidates, a 37 year old, came to me and told me I had just perfectly described how he felt and why he didn't continue to train in his first art after reaching black belt. He told me he thought he was the only one that ever felt like that when he quit. He also told me that now that he understood, he was determined he would never quit again. Maybe something to think about. Danny Dunn <<>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:43:09 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Are comments like this supposed to be helpful to someone? Or perhaps it is just an excuse for you to vent again to make yourself feel better? Please at least try to dig yourself out of that deep dark hole so that your comments are actually useful to someone. Thanks. Ray > Let me see......... > > We have approaches to KMA which include selling rank > and standing, manditory testing over contrived and > inflated curriculum. > > We have derelict, incompetent, misrepresented, > avaricious leadership. > > We have a preponderance of folks seeking the easiest, > cheapest and least-demanding approach to the KMA. > > We have people who would rather invent "new" Korean > arts rather than fully learn the authentic arts, or > failing that, will cherry-pick what it is that they > will and will not study. And don't be too quick to > assume that "most schools have good Black Belt > classes." Fact is that many if not most schools have > little or no idea what to do with Black Belts except > to shovel more variations of Guep material at them. > > And your question speaks to what---- whether or not > there are people who are superficial enough in their > commitment to their training that they drop-out just > about the moment that real growth and development > starts? > > Gee, what were the chances of that? --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:13:15 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi folks, >From: Bruce Sims [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] >Dear Sandy: > >".....Does anyone who operates a school have a >situation where a certian percentage of people, once >they have gotten their black belts quit? And as >instructors, any input on why this is, suggestions to >help prevent? Let's rule out the "Bored" with the >program since any good school will have good black >belt classes....." >Fact is that many if not most schools have >little or no idea what to do with Black Belts except >to shovel more variations of Guep material at them. Oh boy Bruce do you want to start a fire here :-) I have been lucky enough to travel quite a bit teaching seminars over the years. It seems to me that individuals learn the basic system of any martial art by the time they reach 1st dan. Admittedly you will learn new forms for the higher dan rank but quite frankly many people can learn them from books or video if they have been developed to a good 1st dan level. I think you must go back to the start of the modern martial arts here in the US and perhaps even Korea and Japan to get an answer to this question. Lets try to be objective and not get involved in a lot of hyperbole. Funakoshi introduced Karate to Japan in 1922 and it seemed to develop strongly in the University setting. Karate as taught by Funakoshi was not the same as was being taught in Okinawa at that time and Funakoshi even stated so in one of his books. Funakoshi was sent to Japan not because of his skill in Karate but rather that he was an educated man and would be able to put a good face on the art from a backwater province. The "man" in Japan who had it all going for him at this time was Kano with his Judo, and so Funakoshi copied the belt system and I think many of the objectives of Judo into what we now know as Shotokan. Many if not all of the first Koreans to open Kwan in Korea had received training in Shotokan and were black belts in that system (lord only knows the exact ranks they never want to be exact on this point). But I would think it would be safe to assume they were for the most part lower than 5th dan and most likely 1st, 2nd or 3rd dan rank. Back in those days a 5th dan was a very high rank and would have been reserved for the favorite or top students of Fuankoshi (I am going to guess it would have been a very close knit circle of upper dan ranks). Now - just as a guess again - I will assume that Koreans were not part of the inner circle due to racial reasons. Then along came WW 2 and martial arts shut down after the war and the Koreans went home and opened the various Kwan. The heads of the Kwan were of course assumed to have the top ranks and perhaps did not even claim rank at that time. But get out the calculators. Won Kuk Lee started Chung Do Kwan, and then was either asked to leave the Kwan or left on his own (I have heard various stories and don't know which is true) - Son Duk Son took over and then moved to the US in the early 60's. By that time he was a 9th dan in TKD. Here is where the math comes in handy - IF he started TKD in 1945 and he moved to the US in 1963 or thereabouts. SO that means that he would have had about 18 years training. I am not sure of the date that Lee left the Chung Do Kwan and Son took over but lets just split the difference and say that Lee was there 8 years. SO - Son would have taken lessons for 8 years (possibly more or less) and some how within an 18 year period of time moved to the US an became the head of his own group the World Tae Kwon Do Association. How do you go from a white belt to a 9th dan in 18 years or so? I am not picking on Son Duk Son, there are others out there with similar stories such as Gen. Choi who says he got to 2nd dan in Shotokan under Funakoshi. Yet in short order he founded O Do Kwan with Nam Tae Hi and was 9th dan (of course being a General in a military dictatorship has its advantages). Rather than dig up all of the other information on when people started and how long they studied, and under who. I think its safe to say that back in the 40's, 50's and 60's it was possible to go from a lower rank to a senior rank in a relatively short period of time. Now comes the end of WW 2 and the Korean war, with a lot of US and possibly NATO servicemen in Japan, Okinawa, and Korea. They get to 1st dan in a year, come back home and open their own schools. As a black belt they are viewed by the general public as "experts" and because they want to gain students they do not do anything to dissuade the public view. BUT because they are 1st dan they can not promote to 1st dan, they can get folks up to around 2nd or 3rd gup/kyu legitimately. But they want to get to 2nd dan, what to do? So they join an organization back in Korea, Okinawa, or Japan and send off certificated with MONEY for the Gup/Dan certificates and the cash cows are born. Well soon the Japanese, Korean, or Okinawan instructors want to come to the US or they recognize that the American instructor "needs" to be promoted to 2nd dan so they can get the test fees for the 1st dan the instructors are creating. So the time required to get to these ranks has been in the 3, 4, 5, or more years to go from white belt to 1st dan. These guys in turn may move away or decide that they want to have their own school and break away. So how much instruction have they had? Lots of time but a very limited amount of knowledge. So what do they have to pass on to their students? I am not just having a go at the American (western) instructors but I am having a go more so at the Korean, Japanese, or Okinawan instructors who got this snowball rolling. You have Korean instructors who had a limited amount of training under Fuankoshi going back to Korea and starting the various Kwan, you had Japanese college students taking classes who later would go on and teach students and the students would teach and so on. What kind of depth of knowledge was taught to these first instructors who in tern taught others and down the line? Modern martial arts as far as I am concerned has been degraded to a great extent and the only way that it can be improved is for instructors to go outside their limited system and develop skill sets that can be incorporated into their core system. Here in lies the problem with a person getting to 1st dan and quitting the club. They have reached the goal set for them. The goal is something that gives them the majority of the system they are learning and they are clever enough to see that there is not a whole lot more for them to learn. The solution in my opinion is for the heads of the schools or associations to work on gaining new material from other sources to add into their current systems and have the system grow. Not sit stagnate and degenerate. >Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest