Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:39:13 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #41 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1900 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: black belts (J R Hilland) 2. Re: Black Belt Exodus (Bruce Sims) 3. Re: Black Belts (tim walker) 4. Dan thread (Charles Richards) 5. Re: Black Belt Exodus (Bruce Sims) 6. Re: Teaching Black Belts (Bruce Sims) 7. RE: Re: Black Belt Exodus (Rick Clark) 8. Realism in 1 and 2 step sparring (Don Ross) 9. 93 year old master doing form (Jye nigma) 10. Re: Re: Black Belt Exodus (Ray Terry) 11. Re: Re: Black Belt Exodus (Ray Terry) 12. Black Belt 2 cents (Edward) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:18:22 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: black belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> I have seen two types of dojang over the years. Those that make a 'big deal' out of a student getting their chodan and those that don't hype up the rank, test, promotion, etc. When they make a 'big deal' our of getting that rank, the student appears to be 'finished' at chodan. They have obtained that goal. The dojang that do not make a big deal of rank, testing, promotions, keep their yudanja. Just appears to work that way. Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:22:38 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rick: ".....Oh boy Bruce do you want to start a fire here :-) I have been lucky enough to travel quite a bit teaching seminars over the years. It seems to me that individuals learn the basic system of any martial art by the time they reach 1st dan....." Thanks for taking the time to delve into these matters a bit deeper. We really need to talk about these things even if they cause a bit of discomfort. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "tim walker" To: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:28:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Tony: Out of respect, why would you want to wear a belt from another style in someone else's school? I could understand if you were visiting and it was a one time thing, as a representative of your style, but as a tuition paying student, why wouldn't you want to wear your new white belt? <> Be proud of your new white belt! That way, you won't look so silly when they punch you in the head! ;) <> timo "What's so funny about peace, love, and a new bruise?" --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:32:45 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan thread Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear list, I loved three posts on the Dan thread...GM West, Master Foley and Master Dunn. Right On. Bruce, my brother, chill out man :-) Normally, I love the well educated make-me-think twist you add to threads, but this last one...hmmm Can't we all just go to one more class :-) Peace, MC --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:34:00 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "....Are comments like this supposed to be helpful to someone? Or perhaps it is just an excuse for you to vent again to make yourself feel better? Please at least try to dig yourself out of that deep dark hole so that your comments are actually useful to someone....." My sense is that when you live like an ostrich perhaps everything looks like a "deep black hole", yes? Or do you think that by ignoring circumstances things will somehow magically/mystically get better? Allow me to give a single example. Craig submitted a funsey kind of workout that is arguably very effective. By my count there were as many as 12 responses of various kinds to that funsey contribution. Sometime back there was a discussion started about Korean forms which rapidly deteriorated into a criticism and defense of forms work in the KMA and then died a pre-mature death. If people could find time to perform the funsey workout Craig proposed which has little direct biomechanical relationship to KMA training, how is it that those same people are not discussing the practice of forms which are a significant part of KMA training? See my point? What I shared had little or nothing to do with what my own opinion is. What I am asking is why do people ask innane questions about a condition or event we all recognize while everyone carefully steps around the contributing factors pretending they don't exist? To answer your question, my comments will only be helpful to people who are open to discussion of corrective behaviors. This is to say that the answer to Sandy's question lies not in recognizing that Black Belts leave but in fundamentally changing the manner in which we accept, train and educate folks in terms of their expectations and what those expectatiobns have to do with Korean martial arts. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:23:51 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Teaching Black Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rick: ".....Modern martial arts as far as I am concerned has been degraded to a great extent and the only way that it can be improved is for instructors to go outside their limited system and develop skill sets that can be incorporated into their core system. Here in lies the problem with a person getting to 1st dan and quitting the club. They have reached the goal set for them. The goal is something that gives them the majority of the system they are learning and they are clever enough to see that there is not a whole lot more for them to learn. The solution in my opinion is for the heads of the schools or associations to work on gaining new material from other sources to add into their current systems and have the system grow. Not sit stagnate and degenerate....." All well and good and now lets take the card and turn it to look at it from another angle. IF a Black Belt (lets use a Cho-Dan) stays with a school or kwan or organization, what is it exactly that person will get? Heres' a few thoughts along these lines. a.) Lets say that a person is part of an organization whose leader learned EVERY SINGLE THING that HIS teacher had to offer, but THAT teacher only stayed with whatever HE learned until about 3rd dan (I'm thinking of what you said about those Korean Ex-pats that came back from Japan after WW II). What this seems to say to me is that Mr. Organization-owner can only give material and insight up to the maximum experience of HIS teacher, right? What happens after that? Fill? Duplication? b.) Lets say that a students' teacher is pretty liberal or mightily creative and pads what he knows with material that he gets from other arts or cultures because he has pretty much taught all that he knows of the original art? How long is it before BB Student begins to realize that he is being taught stuff that simply is no longer Korean martials arts, which is what he started with, right? c.) Lets say that a student's teacher is pretty clever and actually gets his BB Student to buy into learning a mish-mash of disparate material under the guise of "diversity is a good thing". What happens when it comes time to relate the tactical or strategic underpinnings that hold it all together? Remember the more varied the curriculum the broader and less specific the underpinnings need to be. So in the end what sort of underpinnings does one have? "Anything goes"? "Keep what works and toss what doesn't"? With such vague and general underpinnings is it any wonder that the KMA are degrading faster than a tuna salad sandwich on a hot day? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:31:29 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Bruce, >From: Bruce Sims [mailto:bsims@midwesthapkido.com] >Dear Rick: > >".....Oh boy Bruce do you want to start a fire here >:-) I have been lucky enough to travel quite a bit >teaching seminars over the years. It seems to me that >individuals learn the basic system of any martial art >by the time they reach 1st dan....." > >Thanks for taking the time to delve into these matters >a bit deeper. We really need to talk about these >things even if they cause a bit of discomfort. Not a problem - this is a hot button with me and the post did not go into the depth it could have. But there are a couple of basic problems I see with the modern martial arts. 1) Lots of folks out there are new in the arts and have not been around long enough to remember when finding someone with a 5th degree was like finding a living god. 2) Because so many people are "new" in the martial arts they have not seen the progression of the arts from the infancy to the current state of adolescence. 3) There is a tendency to accept at face value what is being said by instructors, associations, groups etc and not try to understand why things are being said. In other words is there a vested interest in things being said in the way they are being said. 4) We seem to have a tendency to believe our instructors know more than we do and that they have knowledge that they have not yet shared with us. 5) Plus there is a tendency to believe that whatever art we currently are working in is the "best" and arts just don't measure up to what we are being taught. I have put in 43 years now in the martial arts and have seen how the arts have grown, changed, and progressed (perhaps regressed in some cases). Rick Clark www.ao-denkou-kai.org --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Don Ross" To: Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:21:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Realism in 1 and 2 step sparring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To those who decry the lack of 'realism' in step sparring: my understanding of step sparring is to teach the student, A. distance/reach, B. tactics, C. timing , D.flowing counter combinations, and E. instinct/situational awareness, in that order. By 'tactics', I mean learning not to block an opponent's attacking tool into one's counterattack path, blocking an opponent into a position of not being able to continue the attack, etc.I don't believe a student learns these things when in fear of being struck. To those calling for full-scale 'rockem-sockem' step sparring: most do-jangs do not practice full force, full contact training [which is why most MA's practice forms against 'imaginary' opponents, to refine the techniques without bloodshed and broken bones. Yes, lower gups are prone to dancing, they will block and counter with no relationship to their opponent : 'hey folks, ballet class is down the hall, this is a MARTIAL art.' Try this when step sparring: when the student kiaps, the BB instructor instantly launches the punch at 80-90% BB speed, and ONLY TOUCH the student with any unblocked punches. Thus they learn just how fast a punch can arrive even when they know the target exactly [high, low, middle]. With respect to all, just my 3 cents. pil seung, Don Ross --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:08:49 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma To: itf-taekwondo@yahoogroups.com, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 93 year old master doing form Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hope I'm this graceful at 93: http://www.blacktaoist.com/Master%20Lu%20broadsword.html Jye --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:16:25 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > My sense is that when you live like an ostrich perhaps > everything looks like a "deep black hole", yes? Or do > you think that by ignoring circumstances things will > somehow magically/mystically get better? Things do not typically improve by ignoring them. Neither are things likely to improve by continually making tangential negative comments. Please quit looking down in that deep black hole and start looking up at the big beautiful sky. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:24:00 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I am not picking on Son Duk Son, there are others out there with similar > stories such as Gen. Choi who says he got to 2nd dan in Shotokan under > Funakoshi. Yet in short order he founded O Do Kwan with Nam Tae Hi and > was 9th dan (of course being a General in a military dictatorship has > its advantages). Rick, Do you mean Funakoshi's Karate instead of under Funakoshi? I don't know of any source in which Gen. Choi claims Funakoshi as his instructor. ??? Just looking for info on a source I'm not familiar with... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 19:29:07 -0600 From: Edward To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Belt 2 cents Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net FWIW. From the beginning, at my former school, it was the job of the instructors to educate the guppies that a black belt isn't what they think it is. People who are new to training think it is the end. To reiterate what some else has already said on this thread, the term we used for black belts was a qualified beginner. "My goal is to come tomorrow night." just my 2 cents. Edward from Austin --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. 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