Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 07:19:13 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #44 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1900 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Drunken Kung Fu (The Tink) 2. Cho Dan (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 3. Craig's Workout (Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy) 4. re: funsey (?) workout (Alejandro Martinez) 5. Re: Black Belt Exodus (Bruce Sims) 6. Re: Re: Black Belt Exodus (jakskru) 7. RE: Goals (Thomas Gordon) 8. Wearing a white belt (was Black Belts) (Thomas Gordon) 9. Bio mechanics (michael tomlinson) 10. Re: Realism in 1 and 2 step sparring (Jye nigma) 11. Re: RE: Drunken Kung Fu vs. Karate (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:10:33 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "The Tink" To: "Dojang" Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Drunken Kung Fu Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pil Sung,,, When I was living in Centerville, Ohio... I met a Kung Fu Instructor at many of the local tournaments around Dayton...He would compete in forms competition and performed Drunken Kung Fu style...He added a bit of humour to it but always introduced the form as (and I am paraphrasing here...its been 16 years since I lived in Ohio) an illusion of incapacitated ability.. I found it rather impressive...Unfortunately.. I cannot remember the instructor's name...very talented as well as personable, courteous, and respectful...as were his students... PS: Master Hilland...I miss getting thrown around by you... I haven't had enough pain in my life recently... Looking forward to seeing you in Jackson!!! Pil Sung... The One and Only Tink --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:16:56 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Cho Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "One thing that no one has mentioned yet regarding losing students right after cho dan:" I was always taught that 1st Dan was "Il Dan". 2nd Dan was "Yi Dan" and so forth. Where did "Cho Dan" come from and what is it's exact meaning? Thanks. James Morgan GTKDA --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:20:36 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Craig's Workout Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig, would you mind posting your now-famous workout one more time? For those of us that are too lazy to look it up in the DD archives? Actually, I tried but couldn't find it...:) Thanks. James Morgan GTKDA --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Alejandro Martinez" To: Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 14:05:19 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: funsey (?) workout Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear all: Given the demands of my academic activities, I do not normally send post to this forum, which otherwise I enjoy a lot. However, given some of Mr. Simms most recent comments, I now openly regret not thanking Mr. Craig Stovall, whom I share lots of things (e.g., my approach to martial arts and physical conditioning, long years of training not only KMA but martial arts in general, my eclectic approach) for sharing his hard-earned wisdom with all of us, specially middle-age and older readers (I am 41 yrs young!). So here I am: Thanks a lot Craig! (I look forward to read your book when it is ready). Given their nature, I usually skip most of Mr. Simms comments, but this time he went a bit far, showing once more profound ignorance and bias by saying that physical conditioning (e.g. the "Stovall protocol") has "little direct biomechanical relationship to KMA". There are two possibilities: either Mr. Simms gives the term KMA a very different-narrow meaning from the one usually used here (Korean Martial Arts), or he does not know a bit about the meaning of the term "biomechanical" nor about martial arts in general. Best regards, Alejandro Martinez. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:42:27 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....However, if we can agree that the martial arts has at least SOME physical component to it, then I believe increased strength, muscle endurance, and cardio-respiratory fitness would have a great biomechanical carry-over to one's martial arts training (or tennis game, or snow skiing, or volleyball, etc). Think of it like this...you can practice more of those precious forms over a longer period of time instead of saying "Damn I'm old and tired" after 10 minutes....." And the focus of that comment was to ask that if people can invest themselves in your workout, and discuss its efficacy, how is it that same energy cannot be used to perform the hyung specific to each art and discuss the efficacy of THAT exercize. Its not an "either/or" question. The same can be asked regarding many aspects of the KMA. Why do people practice Japanese sword instead of Korean sword? Why do people practice Japanese or Okinawan staff instead of Korean staff? Why practice Fillipino stick, or Indonesian stick instead of Korean stick. The report of individuals here is that they practice KOREAN arts, but DO they? Simply pointing these views up is enough to have Ray ask me why I am being so negative, but noone ever quite gets around to explaining why it is that when discussion comes around to KMA, favor routinely falls to the most lenient or liberal interpretation in the discussion. A person could be forgiven for thinking that discussions of KMA have less to do with reality than with sharing opinions about what shapes KMA imagery. Is that what we have--- a group of good ol' boys yuckin' it up like guys anywhere albeit with a bit of a KMA tinge to the discussion? If that really is the case, are we still feigning surprize to Sandy that people drop-out after making Cho-dan? With this kind of community, why on Earth would anyone want to stay? FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:50:13 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net dude, if you dont think that what you call "funsey" ( what the heck is that anyway?) workouts dont have any direct benefit on your KMA then i can only assume that the KMA you practice must be populated by overweight, underdeveloped, and out of shape cream puffs....do you have "defense against twinky stealing" as part of the curriculum? physical fitness is very much one of the many important parts of ant martial arts training, or for that matter just your own personal well being. please think before you leap... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Sims" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 12:34 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus > If people could find time to perform the funsey > workout Craig proposed which has little direct > biomechanical relationship to KMA training, how is it --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Goals Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:24:36 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Grandmaster West has some good outlooks and mounds of useful information. Seems like I recall someone saying he has 40+ black belts at his school which is more than many schools have in total student count. So I guess we can consider that an expert in retention. :) Another line I borrowed from Grandmaster West was just last week. A fella comes to our school and asks the usual questions of how much, how often, when, etc. Then he asks, can I be proficient after a month? I wasn't sure if he was serious or not but after studying his posture/disposition for a moment, I realized he was very serious. I just smiled and told him it I was still trying to be "proficient" and this was a school full of beginners....some have been beginning longer than others. Hope to see some of you at Mr. Longton's school in Navarre, FL in a couple of weekends when he hosts Master West and some of the Jackson crew. www.precisionmartialarts.net If not there, I'll see ya in Jackson about five weekends from now. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Thomas Gordon" To: Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:24:36 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Wearing a white belt (was Black Belts) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Personally, I have no problem wearing a white belt. But consider a few examples: 1 - A few months ago I went to tournament that was a mixed ju-jitsu competition allowing throws, sweeps, hand & kick techniques. A new white belt in ju-jitsu literally ran over everybody in his division. The reason why? Because he had a black belt in a stand up art. I think that was unfair to a true novice. 2 - A brand new white belt comes to taekwondo class and notices a yellow belt kicks at head level. He gets discouraged after a few months because he can't keep up with the other student. What he didn't know was that the other student has a black in kung fu. When taking Ju-Jitsu, I was required to wear my black belt even though I had absolutely no concept of how to fall. (Well, I knew how to fall...just not the way I was supposed to). His reasoning, I wasn't a novice martial artist although I was new to ju-jitsu. And yes, there were times I felt real dumb as lower ranks whizzed through the joint locks and I was still trying to figure out how I ended up with three left feet and how in the world did they pull off that technique with only two hands.... Anyway, not an answer per se, just something to think about. I won't be around to respond for a few days. I'll be attending a seminar in the Tampa area this weekend. Thomas Gordon Florida --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 13:19:12 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bio mechanics Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When it comes to biomechanics and martial arts...hmmm... to say that doing intense calisthenics doesn't help your form practice is IMHO..wrong.... can you see where a push up movement is like a punch?? Can you see that squat thrusts build strong legs that help your lower stances... can you see where a sit up builds your core strength that affects your posture?? Craig preach on bro... everything you put in your workout is tried and true...I have buddies in the Special Forces venue that are actually in the process of publishing a book right now that deal with workouts such as yours..they do them all the time... the longest one is over three hours and your cool down in between everything is jumping rope.. you jump rope for over an hour in short bursts between the sets.. I also agree with your old instructor saying that if a black belt quits after his 1st dan then he really wasn't a student.... my old instructor in Ohio told the class once that students are like leaves on a tree and they eventually fall off the tree...some of them take root and become like the tree they were from but most of them just die off....he also said that you should never confuse fried rice with fried lice!!! Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 05:45:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Realism in 1 and 2 step sparring To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It's been my experience that one steps lack a realistic approach to teaching distance, reach, etc etc. I've been to schools were there is no true intent to hit your opponent, which will result in poor blocking, poor timing, poor blocking/parrying power, etc. What I mean is the way it was....we kiyap then throw the punch not actually at the target (face), also pulling the punch as to not hit the defender, and the arm is somewhat stiff but limp which when the defender blocks, moves easily. Now when we had an israeli man join our school, he changed my training/perspective of training forever. What we did is simple... We'd attack when we were ready, punching with actual intent on striking the defender. The defender now had to really block to move the attackers arm out of the target's path. Sounds like no big deal, but it really was because if you're a smaller fellow blocking a larger person's attack there is a certain amount of power that should be used along with the general use of physics. So in other words if we blocked the way we used to, we'd get hit. so in a nutshell we were really attacking, and really blocking, now I can tell you there was a huge difference in performance. the bruises and deep bruises were our testament to better training. So some years after that this is how I train. we attack with actual intent, and defended with actual intent. That simple change made the 1 steps much better and believeable. There were still plenty of movie like one steps, blocking knifes with kicks and jumping kicks like billy jack...lol. Jye Don Ross wrote: To those who decry the lack of 'realism' in step sparring: my understanding of step sparring is to teach the student, A. distance/reach, B. tactics, C. timing , D.flowing counter combinations, and E. instinct/situational awareness, in that order. By 'tactics', I mean learning not to block an opponent's attacking tool into one's counterattack path, blocking an opponent into a position of not being able to continue the attack, etc.I don't believe a student learns these things when in fear of being struck. To those calling for full-scale 'rockem-sockem' step sparring: most do-jangs do not practice full force, full contact training [which is why most MA's practice forms against 'imaginary' opponents, to refine the techniques without bloodshed and broken bones. Yes, lower gups are prone to dancing, they will block and counter with no relationship to their opponent : 'hey folks, ballet class is down the hall, this is a MARTIAL art.' Try this when step sparring: when the student kiaps, the BB instructor instantly launches the punch at 80-90% BB speed, and ONLY TOUCH the student with any unblocked punches. Thus they learn just how fast a punch can arrive even when they know the target exactly [high, low, middle]. With respect to all, just my 3 cents. pil seung, Don Ross _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1900 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 06:06:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Drunken Kung Fu vs. Karate To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes there is most definitely martial arts based on drunken style, ranging from the drunken immortal to drunken money. The styles contain deceptive tactics and make the stylist look off balance and what not, but they are able to strike from odd places. One of my teachers learned drunken boxing, but I never learned it. Jye CStovall@nucorar.com wrote: I didn't think there actually WAS a style called Drunken Kung-Fu (or Drunken Fist, or Drunken Boxing, etc.). I thought that was just something that was made up for the movies (Jackie Chan being the main culprit). Jye, is this a real style? Do you have any info or web resources? BTW, Jackie Chan's 'Legend of Drunken Master' is one of my top three favorite martial arts flicks of all time. 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