Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 11:45:57 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #45 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1900 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Cho Dan (Ray Terry) 2. Re: Re: Black Belt Exodus (Ray Terry) 3. Re: Re: Black Belt Exodus (Ray Terry) 4. RE: Black Belts That Quit (zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu) 5. Thoughts along the way. (J. R. West) 6. RE: Cho Dan (Denise) 7. Re: Re: Drunken Kung Fu (Jye nigma) 8. The World Acording to Bruce (Charles Richards) 9. Wearing a white belt (was Black Belts) (Divetony@aol.com) 10. Re: Black Belt Exodus (CStovall@nucorar.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Cho Dan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:40:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "One thing that no one has mentioned yet regarding losing students right > after cho dan:" > > I was always taught that 1st Dan was "Il Dan". 2nd Dan was "Yi Dan" and so > forth. Where did "Cho Dan" come from and what is it's exact meaning? As I understand it, Cho Dan is a term that comes over from Japan. It means beginning dan, iirc. Several koreans, mostly Kukkiwon types, have explained to be that Il Dan should be used instead of Cho Dan. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:21:06 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... Simply pointing these views up is enough > to have Ray ask me and others... > why I am being so negative, Because you were. Yet another rant and rave in which you again offend or bewilder many/most readers. Not the best way to get your point across. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:34:31 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ... Why do people > practice Japanese sword instead of Korean sword? Why > do people practice Japanese or Okinawan staff instead > of Korean staff? Why practice Fillipino stick, or > Indonesian stick instead of Korean stick. The report > of individuals here is that they practice KOREAN arts, > but DO they? Now this is something we can talk about. I prefer to learn what is most effective. Many will pick what is readily available. Few base their education solely on its country of origin. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:47:38 -0600 From: zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Black Belts That Quit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ultimately as an instructor I blame myself every time a student leaves no > matter what rank. Sandy, There is an old saying that fits this quite well "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." If you're an instructor you are going to have students leave, you can't make the choice for them. I have had several students come in set a goal for "Black Belt" achieve it after four years of hard work just to decide that they had achieved their goal and they were now done participating in martial arts. I doubt it is because they are bored because my style has an extensive amount of material at first degree. I run into them outside of the dojang and they come up and tell me how great it is to see me, how much they miss the class, they are even sources for a number of referrals after thy have left. The sad fact is that I will probably never see the training at the dojang again. I don't take it personally, I just except that they have moved on to something else. It is a hard lesson to learn that while you may have dedicated yourself to practicing for a lifetime, very few other people ever will. Richard Zaruba, PSBN Kuk Sool Won Family Martial Arts Center Grand Forks, ND --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "J. R. West" To: Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:53:31 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Thoughts along the way. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First off, one for James Morgan: When attaining Black belt, a student has always been referred to as "Chodan", or beginning dan, and then E-dan or second dan. I have never heard of a teacher using Il-dan when referring to a bottom level black belt. Second, anyone that comes into my school, joins my classes and expects to receive rank will start at white belt. Personally, I don't care what they did before, the knowledge of basic motion and rank that they attained previously can not be taken away, but it does NOT pertain to what goes on in my school. The last thing I want is someone wearing a black belt from someplace else, and being approached by a lower rank student to explain some sort of basic motion that is particular to our school. The only thing a belt is good for, other than keeping your dobok neat, is to let me know where you are in MY program....Once you walk out the door, it means nothing. The record so far is an IsshinRyu 6th dan that put on a white belt and is now working towards his 3rd dan after about 7 or 8 years. When asked by visitors "how long does it take to earn a black belt", my reply is "usually about 4 years unless you hold a black belt in something else, then it's a little longer". I insist that my students always carry a white belt in their bag. And finally, if there is one undeniable truth in teaching martial arts, it is that every student you have will leave at one time or another, the trick is to make sure that when they leave, it is with great sorrow. Mr. Tavassoli, for example, was a 4th dan with over 20 years at my school, when he left to do a mid-life General Surgery Residency in Savannah, GA. I feel fairly sure that I will see him darken my door again. Thanx to Mr. Gordon for mentioning my group of black belts, and as of March 5th, I will have at my school, 67 active adult dan holders, with nearly half being 3rd dan or above. I look forward to seeing all my friends in Jackson on March 11-13, and if anyone wants to come early or stay late to get some extra mat time, please feel free....J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Denise" To: Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:24:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Cho Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was always taught that 1st Dan was "Il Dan". 2nd Dan was "Yi Dan" and so forth. Where did "Cho Dan" come from and what is it's exact meaning? Thanks. James Morgan GTKDA James- We've always been taught that Cho = beginning, start. Thus, in terms of being a student, Cho bo ja = beginner. Cho Dan = beginning Dan. (loose translation). Hope this helps- Denise --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:36:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Drunken Kung Fu To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It's very difficult for Kung Fu stylists to compete in none kung fu tournaments as many of their forms are longer then 3 minutes. For instance Sifu Rondie Chen out of rodchester NY does drunken, and one form is about 45mins and if I'm not mistaken that's only the first part of it. I used to compete with a Choy li fut butterfly knives form (twin short swords) and I had to cut out a big chunk of it just to make it to 3 mins. Jye The Tink wrote: Pil Sung,,, When I was living in Centerville, Ohio... I met a Kung Fu Instructor at many of the local tournaments around Dayton...He would compete in forms competition and performed Drunken Kung Fu style...He added a bit of humour to it but always introduced the form as (and I am paraphrasing here...its been 16 years since I lived in Ohio) an illusion of incapacitated ability.. I found it rather impressive...Unfortunately.. I cannot remember the instructor's name...very talented as well as personable, courteous, and respectful...as were his students... PS: Master Hilland...I miss getting thrown around by you... I haven't had enough pain in my life recently... Looking forward to seeing you in Jackson!!! Pil Sung... The One and Only Tink _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1900 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:52:04 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The World Acording to Bruce Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I read your last post and it's back in the vien of "paddling upstream enough to make me think." In the last few years I have come to believe if you are tolerant of everything, you stand for nothing. So the thread causes me to reflect on why do I do what I do. Why (what is the core strategy) do I adsorb certain techniques and reject others? How traditional or Korean is the cirriculum I'm sharing with students, and for the ones that spend half a lifetime with me, will there always be something new to learn and apply? For me, I teach Korean Karate, I think that is the best english translation for what I do. For me I accept Korean Karate as a living evolving art, but your point is well taken about core strategies. A good example I've put some thought in such a simple issue as to what do we wear, is it korean, is it traditional, etc. Now if I call myself TSD then my art is only 60 years young, and an evolution of other root art(s). In the last year or so we have eliminated Y-neck tops for youth in favor of the v-neck, and nobody except me has any drawstring pants. Why, because it's easier to put on and keeps our youth students looking more "uniform" during class, which is the point in wear a uniform, neh? As we expand or program to include Kyuroogi (WTF-style), we have found that v-necks are the best piece of equipment to wear under a hogu. No some would argue that a v-neck is not "traditional" and others would argue it is not "TSD". I'd agree that Craig's workout may not be KMA, but it will improve your core strength, so it can only improve your KMA technique,yes? Your post about weapons selection is something that I'll continue to think on. For example in 2005 the most efficient projectile range weapon would be a 40 caliber Glock or H&K, but the traditional Korean would be a reverse curve bow. There are many fine lessons to be learned from cross training in traditional korean archery, but it would be very impractical to carry, and quite frankly not wise if my known advisary/potential assailant has 16 rounds of 40 caliber lead to return the volley with. Thanks again for giving me many things to ponder. I suspect that is how many of the founding masters refined the core strategies of thier arts. As Robin's says "questions are the answer." So thanks for caring enough to ask. Stay Well, Charles Richards www.mojakwan.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Divetony@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:58:43 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Wearing a white belt (was Black Belts) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 2/4/2005 12:09:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Wearing a white belt (was Black Belts) Very good points, that's probably why the school I joined has the policy. Clearly when it comes to skills I have learned I have more ability than a basic white belt. It serves as a good warning and an example to lower belts. I share your sentiment about the falls and locks, I'm going through some humbling experiences now. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: CStovall@nucorar.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:04:41 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt Exodus Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> First of all, I'm assuming that people ARE performing their respective hyungs. I'm also assuming that they are teaching and modeling the respective benefits of said practice to their students and peers BACK IN THE REAL WORLD. Why try to re-create that process over the internet? Only so many hours in the week, y'know? Some of us have jobs and families. It's enough to DO the thing. I imagine my sharing generated some excitement because we don't talk a whole lot about conditioning on this list, and some folks appreciated the time I took to write it. I don't pretend to tell some 5th degree black belt that Chon-ji is their most important hyung (assuming they practice that set)...they should already know that!!! However, the state of physical conditioning knowledge in many martial arts circles is lacking and out-of-date...thus the excitement when someone comes along and offers something of value on that subject. <<>> You are the classic example of a person that likes to wear the "good guy badge". Evidently, your good guy badge was manufactured in Korea. Most people use religion and politics as their good guy badge. "We Republicans aren't gonna let those stinking Democrats take over and tax the hell out of everyone". That's an example of a typical good guy badge. It's not that most of the people who actually SAY that type of thing actually BELIEVE in what they're saying. More to the point, they're self-esteem is contingent upon them taking some kind of stand that puts them at odds against the "bad guys". Me good, they bad. It's a cozy little way of organizing the universe, and I understand why people fall into that trap because I used to live like that in my younger days. Your good guy badge is about being a "Korean BY-GOD Martial Artist". You say you're a certain thing, and BY-GOD that's what you are. And you want to know something...there's a part of me that respects that. I say good for you. The problem I have is the way in which you flash the badge. Being a live-by-the-code KMAist might be the right thing for YOU, but that doesn't mean that other people who are walking a different path are wrong. Quick example: Bruce Sims is all about the KOREAN way. Bruce is interested in the Korean martial code, and the Korean techniques, and the Korean martial ethics, and the Korean philosophy, and the Korean cultural trappings, and the Korean terminology. You know what? That's great!!! Then there's Craig Stovall. Craig is all about the CRAIG way. You see, Craig realizes that Craig has to live Craig's life. Therefore, Craig will not shortchange himself by limiting his experience to ways and things that SOCIETY has collectively identified with a particular nation, culture, or people. I enjoy being a martial artist, and I will continue to beg, borrow, and steal from any and all sources that contribute toward moving me further along the path and toward my goal. But, that's just me. No better or worse than anybody else. So far, the results have been pretty good. One thing you can depend on is this...I will no longer wear my WAY as a good guy badge. Been there, done that. Didn't hurt anybody but myself. <<>> Your problem is that you are not addressing the question. Ray's use of the word "tangent" to describe some of your postings is dead on. People quitting at Chodan level has NOTHING to do with the problems facing the KMA. The reason being is because it's not just the KMA in which we see this phenomenon. It's a phenomenon that occurs in Shotokan, Goju-ryu, Judo, and Brooklyn Soul Brother Kempo. It's about people setting a goal (I want to be a black belt), and the dissonance that occurs when people actually realize that goal. "Well hell...where do I go from here?". Most don't go anywhere because their strip mall karate instructor can't take them any further. Do you blame them for quitting? Where's the challenge? The obvious path would be to strap on a white belt and start fresh with a new teacher and art. The problem is that most of us have accumulated so much EGO by that time that the prospect of putting on a white belt is about as palatable as open heart surgery. That and people like you would vilify them as being traitors with short attention spans. The truth for ME is that I would have quit a long time ago if I had not found it within myself to put on the white belt again. I honestly don't know how I did it, because I was convinced I knew it all when I first reached chodan. I mean between my training and my subscription to Black Belt magazine, what else was there to learn, right?!?!?!? I kinda dig your "Chicken Little" routines about the KMA because they provide at least one unchanging port of safe harbor in a swirling and dynamic world. Even if the world goes to pot I know that I can always jump on your bandwagon and piously curse everything that is "Korean but not really Korean enough to really be considered Korean by a person who knows Korean when they see Korean". However, this time you're off base. But, hey!!! Did you try my workout? Craig "My Dry Cleaner is Korean" Stovall P.S., in case no one caught it...my particular good guy badge is pointing out other people who wear the good guy badge. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. 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Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest