Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 10:31:21 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #48 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1900 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Cho dan (Ray Terry) 2. RE: Cho Dan (George Peters) 3. Facts? (Frank Clay) 4. Evolution (Frank Clay) 5. respect (Wendy Ross) 6. Mr. Simms - Mixing Martial Arts (Brooke Thomas) 7. asinine, you bet! (David Weller) 8. RE: hung up on funsey? (Howard Spivey) 9. Re: One steps and curmudgeons (Christopher Spiller) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Cho dan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 19:37:05 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > What a Crock of PC! So - > E-dan is not similar to Ni-dan? > OR > Sam-dan is not similar to San-dan? > OR > O-dan is not similar to Go-dan? Those are corresponding numbers. Their point, if I can properly defend something that I don't necessarily agree with, is that "beginning dan" is somehow less than a full fledged dan rank. If that were not the case, again following this logic, the proper numeral representation would be used in the description. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "George Peters" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 03:09:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Cho Dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net James, I whole heartedly concur with Denise in her answer to you about the meaning of cho dan. In our handbook, Il means "first"(sino-korean I believe according to my reference). I have only ever heard cho dan used for a rank designation, but I would opine(dangerous to do here on the DD) that the term used by an org would have to do with the underlying philosophy of the org in mention. Respectfully, George --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:34:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Facts? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, You said "What I hear VERY clearly and more often than not is "I know what I want to believe; don't bother me with the facts." I think this is a slap in the face of virtually every KMAist who has disagreed with you. I can't speak for others, but I have trained under Koreans for almost 2 decades. Basically you are saying with that statement that they are not real Koreans because I got information from them that contradicts what you post. You wnet to Korea what once? For how long? And I am supposed to take what you see after you read some books and went to Korea once? What about the teachings of Masters Yoon, Dae Un (a Korean National currently), Pak, Ho Sik (a Korean-American), Dong, Seung Gyoo ( a Korean American) and so forth who have spent years... to the tune of 40 or better, actually being Korean. I think that your comment above reeks of arrogance. And not to bring up the past, but when you stormed off the mat at Master Whalen's school and used profanity there, you violated the concept of Kibun. I have been injured on the mat with Koreans. They get you to suck it up. So in my humble view, stop reading books and correcting others and start living the path you want to flash. I have discussed many of the issues that have occurred in the last five years with Koreans and to the man they all think it should be let go. So I took their advice and let it go. A lesson that one of them gave me was that being a martial artist meant to be strong. Being strong is to be gentle. To be gentle you have to be accepting. Fighting and bickering over things you cannot change makes you look small and is not gentle. Now I'm not trying to crucify Sims Sabom here. What I am pointing out is that you seem to have a distorted view of Koreans. They do have some cultural differences, but they are men and women like us. They do have a distinct philosophy but they also don't shove it down anyone's throat and claim to be better than another by either saying it, or insinuating it. In fact, I dare say that many of us on this list have as much if not more contact with Koreans than you and if you really want people to listen to your words, try listening to theirs. f. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Frank Clay" To: Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 08:41:41 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Evolution Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, "If I have to explain to you why it is inadviseable to mix and match material from disparate arts, I doubt you are ever going to understand. Suffice to say that not everyone has your liberal take, but the difference is that I can make room for your liberalism in my world. I don't any indication that this is works the other way around. FWIW." Just how do you think any martial art came into being? Do you think some Korean sat down and created KMA? Of course not. The arts evolved over time from real encounters with people of all cultures. In my mind this is the true tradition of martial art. It is also a concept that has been around since Sun Tzu wrote it in the Art of War. This is something that Musashi did, The Five Southbound Tigers and so forth. What we need is to be honest and say... this art (XYZ-do) evolved from... yadda yadda jutsu. In fact, do you honestly believe that Hapkido, which we believe is a descendent from DRAJJ came from a pure art itself? If so, you need to do more research in the Samurai arts. These arts, none of them, were developed in a vacuum. What did not work was discarded... until the 20th century when people indicated that to learn from another system was liberal. In reality, it is very practical. How else are you going to be familiar with the threats out there? Hapkido is first and foremost a military art and that alone is cause for studying the approach put forth by other systems. f. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 09:29:31 -0600 From: Wendy Ross To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] respect Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have been reading the posts on this digest and found some things to be interesting and educational so will continue to look at it... that is, IF the entry's of disrespect and seemingly argumentative issues can be limited!! :) To read and learn is one thing, to read and listen to guys spatting back and forth is not what I have time for. It seems the few that are doing it might be really bored or may not be considering that other respected and respectful martial artists are reading the submissions. I really enjoy the demo & various fighting videos and look forward to seeing more of those...even if I have to scan through and overlook the negative 'spatting' entry's. I am not sure where these folks train or what lessons they missed on respect & etiquette in the martial arts, but I am certain that those attitudes are not welcome in my dojo or in my inbox! Best wishes... Knowledge in the Mind, Honesty in the Heart, Strength in the Body http://texasblackbeltkarate.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.5 - Release Date: 2/3/2005 --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 07:55:20 -0800 (PST) From: Brooke Thomas To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr. Simms - Mixing Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Simms- I would like to hear you add just a little more about the dangers of mixing martial arts. As a Hapkido practictioner, I rememeber vividly when we had seminar from a group of Machado BJJ guys from Australia. They showed us some very effective entries to leg shoots, then I got to grapple one of their blue belts, who tied me into knots. I humbling but eye-opening experience. Years later, and after adding a BJJ influenced ground game to my arsenal, I was invited to grapple with a 6th degree Taekwondo guy who was visiting our dojang. He wanted to see what all the rage was on the ground...and after being cautioned by my instructor to go easy on this guy as he didn't have ground experience, we rolled and I gently tapped him with every technique I had ever learned. He later told my intructor that that was a humbling experience for a guy with so much martial arts experience. Yes..., we often start rolling from the kneeling position but all martial artists have to agree that at some point, they may find themselves on the ground and it just might be a good idea to know what to do when you get (land) there. And yes..., I also have a traditional Hapkido teacher who believes (like I assume you do) that he doesn't need any other arts blended in and if you and I are going to the ground together, it is my responsibility to make sure you're unconscious when you get there....! But you have to agree, not EVERY one of your Hapkido strikes, grabs, or throws hits its target 100% of the time...and you may be on a slick floor, ice, etc....and you WILL find yourself laying down at SOME POINT (sorry for shouting). However in my training, we now really kind of refer to ourselves as KPG guys...kick, punch, grapple...versus traditional Hapkido guys, as when we spar, we pound on each other and look for entries (sweeps, throws, shoots) for submissions and we continue the striking on the ground for those who forget to cover or don't try to take better position. So I am curious Mr. Simms (and no disrespect intended), what happens when you find yourself on the ground with somebody who is in obvious disagreement with you and want to break things on your person? Where's the traditional Hapkido manual for that? Respectfully, Brooke Thomas Hapkido Blend (thankfully) --__--__-- Message: 7 From: David Weller Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:06:07 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] asinine, you bet! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The resident curmudgeon wrote; > From: Bruce Sims > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Assinine? > Dear Dave: > If I have to explain to you why it is inadviseable to > mix and match material from disparate arts, I doubt > you are ever going to understand. Suffice to say that > not everyone has your liberal take, but the difference > is that I can make room for your liberalism in my > world. I don't any indication that this is works the > other way around. FWIW. > Best Wishes, > Bruce Thank God for my ignorance and liberalism. It means I don't have to read through one of your long winded, pointless diatribes about how if I don't hold my chopsticks like a Korean I am somehow a senseless retard. I never realized cross training, learning new things and trying to broaden ones horizons was "liberal" and to be despised. Your xenophobic view of all things NOT Korean (or modified by Koreans) is just an excuse for you jumping on your soapbox and making noise. Saying "mixing and matching" disparate arts is inadvisable is like saying you should not learn a foreign language if you speak English because the grammar and sentence structure is different and one could never reconcile the two. I've seen the crazies in the cities standing on the street corner talking to no one about nothing and I think they may very well be your soul mates. Now, like any good liberal, I will go back to living in a dream world where folks have consideration for one another and it's not a sin to think different. FYT dave weller --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Howard Spivey" To: Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:30:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: hung up on funsey? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net do i have any thoughts, bruce? yep... you presume to read my mind, but apparently you're not very good at it... i believe what i posted was pretty clear. i was asking you why you feel compelled to rant about a post that many of us found helpful, and turn the post's subject on its head by launching a discussion that seemed roughly about the purity of korean martial arts - a subject that would require gargantuan leaps of logic to link to craig's original post. i did not "roast" you. please re-read what i wrote... i merely asked you why you are so condescending to all who don't happen to share your viewpoints. please note, btw, that i am not judging your viewpoints and opinions. " You may not realize it Howard, but you are affirming exactly what I originally commented on a few posts ago. Folks would rather talk about superficial, opinion-driven generalizations than apply themselves to what they say they are here for..." - please help me here, as i'm having trouble understanding exactly what you mean. do you mean that those of us who occasionally discuss topics of physical fitness and conditioning here are engaging in superficial, opinion-driven generalizations? and does the latter part of your comment mean that you also believe that if some of us choose to discuss such topics here, that means that we don't apply ourselves to our training? where do thing get fixed and resolved? they don't. it's way bigger than all of us put together. many of us have managed to accept that, and pursue our training and physical fitness / conditioning regimens nonetheless. i repeat my original question: why are you so condescending toward, and dismissive of, anybody and everybody who doesn't agree with you? Message: 7 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:40:24 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hung Up On Funsey?? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Howard: You are either not reading my posts in their entirety or you are willfully choosing to read something into the post which is not there. Nobody said anything about doing or not doing Craigs workout. My question is that if one can find time for Craigs workout, why not find time for more traditional training such as hyung? If one can find time to discuss Craigs workout--- or roast me--- how is it that you are not responding to the matter written about "core material" which is actually more germane to the issue. You are apparently hung up on the term "funsey" but you never quite got around to make a productive contribution to the actual issue I was raising. You may not realize it Howard, but you are affirming exactly what I originally commented on a few posts ago. Folks would rather talk about superficial, opinion-driven generalizations than apply themselves to what they say they are here for. This is a Korean martial art forum. But when matters of Korean martial arts come up the discussion routinely favors liberal, superficial and political discussion were all people have to risk or contribute is their opinions--- and we all know about opinions. Excuse me but where does anything get fixed, or at least resolved? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:14:56 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: One steps and curmudgeons Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dave Weller said: "I must agree that One steps have the possibility of giving a false sense of security and enhance poor technique. I always ask my one step partners to "try" to hit me in the nose (or where ever). And I ALWAYS return the favor... I've regretted it a couple of times, but I believe it has helped me "keep it real" for myself and my fellow students. Of course this has to be tempered by the students rank. White belts should probably not be trying to really hit the target." For what it's worth, Gen. Choi's encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do presents step-sparring in such a manner that if you actually follow the method for measuring distance between the partners the attacker WILL hit the defender if the latter doesn't move. In fact, if the "defender" holds still and the attacker steps forward with a punch (with no power, of course) the elbow will be noticablly bent when the fist connects with the solar plexus. In my estimation, straightening the elbow puts the fist about 2" inside the attackers chest :) The same holds true when measuring for attacks to the high section (face) and low section (groin). The key is proper measuring, which does NOT entail leaving the defender in a position where blocking and/or ddging becomes meaningless. Proper measuring means the defender must actually DEFEND himself. Gen. Choi also presents several "incorrect" measuring methods. They are incorrect because the don't allow for correct lining up of the attacking tool with the defender's body! Add to this a realistically launched attack and much of the criticism regarding 1-, 2-, and 3-stepping evaporates, imho. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest