Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 17:20:15 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #49 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1900 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Mr. Simms - Mixing Martial Arts (jakskru) 2. Re: Mr. Simms - Mixing Martial Arts (Jye nigma) 3. Re: Evolution (Jye nigma) 4. Re: Re: One steps and curmudgeons (Ray Terry) 5. musahsi, sun tsu study guides? (harmonywushu@juno.com) 6. Re: Martial Which ??? (Bruce Sims) 7. Simms on the ground (michael tomlinson) 8. Re: To The Point #2 (Bruce Sims) 9. Lopez Fifth (Ray Terry) 10. Re: Re: Martial Which ??? (Jye nigma) 11. sharing a room in Jackson (Master Mac) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "jakskru" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Mr. Simms - Mixing Martial Arts Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:18:45 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i just wanted to quickly chime in here....first off, i cant believe it, but i really must agree with bruce on not mixing your training ( for the most part )....you should concentrate on one art if you chose the path of traditional MA....to learn two or more styles at once is counterproductive. now, dont get me wrong here, adding some things to your arsenal here and there isnt a bad thing at all, as long as you do it in the context of the philosophies of your base art. also, i want to be clear here that i am referring to trying to learn two traditional styles at the same time....this really doesnt apply if you are involved in some form of gladiator type MMA training program where your goal is to be a well rounded ring fighter. and to you brooke, i dont know what your traditional HKD is all about, but at the school where i train, we have plenty of ground fighting material...after all, doesnt HKD derive from daito-ryu aiki-juijitsu? unless you may possibly not have gotten the "full" boat so to speak...just my humble 1 cent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brooke Thomas" To: Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 10:55 AM Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr. Simms - Mixing Martial Arts > Mr. Simms- > > I would like to hear you add just a little more about > the dangers of mixing martial arts. As a Hapkido > practictioner, I rememeber vividly when we had seminar > from a group of Machado BJJ guys from Australia. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:25:51 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Mr. Simms - Mixing Martial Arts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think some people may think that their martial art is the 1 that is complete, but what we should remember is that in the past friends and others exchanged 'notes' on fighting and when they found something that had a different approach it may have been incorporated into the style. So the mixing of martial arts tactics has been going on long before any of us was even on this earth. now to be fair and to play word games, the mixing of martial arts could be a bad thing as when speaking of martial arts means the system and philosophy customs, etc etc as a whole may contradict each other. But the mixing of techniques and tactics isn't a bad thing. Of course one should at least be at a good point in their training where introducing another art into their arsenal wont be a problem. It's like cooking, if you only follow the instructions, and never take time to understand what each ingredient does and why the instructions are in the order that they are in then no, mixing in new ingredients or altering the recipe is not for you. But if you understand what each ingredient does (the science) and understand why the order is important and at which step you can include other ingredients, then what you'll have is a truly pleasing product. Jye Brooke Thomas wrote: Mr. Simms- I would like to hear you add just a little more about the dangers of mixing martial arts. As a Hapkido practictioner, I rememeber vividly when we had seminar from a group of Machado BJJ guys from Australia. They showed us some very effective entries to leg shoots, then I got to grapple one of their blue belts, who tied me into knots. I humbling but eye-opening experience. Years later, and after adding a BJJ influenced ground game to my arsenal, I was invited to grapple with a 6th degree Taekwondo guy who was visiting our dojang. He wanted to see what all the rage was on the ground...and after being cautioned by my instructor to go easy on this guy as he didn't have ground experience, we rolled and I gently tapped him with every technique I had ever learned. He later told my intructor that that was a humbling experience for a guy with so much martial arts experience. Yes..., we often start rolling from the kneeling position but all martial artists have to agree that at some point, they may find themselves on the ground and it just might be a good idea to know what to do when you get (land) there. And yes..., I also have a traditional Hapkido teacher who believes (like I assume you do) that he doesn't need any other arts blended in and if you and I are going to the ground together, it is my responsibility to make sure you're unconscious when you get there....! But you have to agree, not EVERY one of your Hapkido strikes, grabs, or throws hits its target 100% of the time...and you may be on a slick floor, ice, etc....and you WILL find yourself laying down at SOME POINT (sorry for shouting). However in my training, we now really kind of refer to ourselves as KPG guys...kick, punch, grapple...versus traditional Hapkido guys, as when we spar, we pound on each other and look for entries (sweeps, throws, shoots) for submissions and we continue the striking on the ground for those who forget to cover or don't try to take better position. So I am curious Mr. Simms (and no disrespect intended), what happens when you find yourself on the ground with somebody who is in obvious disagreement with you and want to break things on your person? Where's the traditional Hapkido manual for that? Respectfully, Brooke Thomas Hapkido Blend (thankfully) _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1900 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:30:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Evolution To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree. We seem to forget the challenges different martial art schools used to have "proving" their system. We forget friends trading secrets, people learning from experience and/or just watching a battle. If the mixing of martial arts never took place we would have any today. When I read this email, I was quickly reminded of a chinese general who fled to Japan's mountains and taught a Japanese man, who would later be known as what we refer to today as a ninja. Jye Frank Clay wrote: Just how do you think any martial art came into being? Do you think some Korean sat down and created KMA? Of course not. The arts evolved over time from real encounters with people of all cultures. In my mind this is the true tradition of martial art. It is also a concept that has been around since Sun Tzu wrote it in the Art of War. This is something that Musashi did, The Five Southbound Tigers and so forth. What we need is to be honest and say... this art (XYZ-do) evolved from... yadda yadda jutsu. In fact, do you honestly believe that Hapkido, which we believe is a descendent from DRAJJ came from a pure art itself? If so, you need to do more research in the Samurai arts. These arts, none of them, were developed in a vacuum. What did not work was discarded... until the 20th century when people indicated that to learn from another system was liberal. In reality, it is very practical. How else are you going to be familiar with the threats out there? Hapkido is first and foremost a military art and that alone is cause for studying the approach put forth by other systems. f. _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1900 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: One steps and curmudgeons To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:41:35 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > For what it's worth, Gen. Choi's encyclopedia of > Taekwon-Do presents step-sparring in such a manner > that if you actually follow the method for measuring > distance between the partners the attacker WILL hit > the defender if the latter doesn't move. In fact, if > the "defender" holds still and the attacker steps > forward with a punch (with no power, of course) the > elbow will be noticablly bent when the fist connects > with the solar plexus. In my estimation, straightening > the elbow puts the fist about 2" inside the attackers > chest :) Just a question... In using Gen. Choi's system of measuring, when the defender moves as the attack is coming in will the punch/kick land short of the intended target? Does the defender still execute a block if the technique is going to fall short? If so, what is it they are blocking? I don't know how the ITF does their step sparring, so just asking. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "harmonywushu@juno.com" Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 19:52:23 GMT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] musahsi, sun tsu study guides? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi everyone, I've been looking for a study guide to both Musahsi's Five rings and Sun Tsu's art of war. Having found nothing apart from commentaries that don't really say anything new, I'm trying to compile study guides for them. What lessons have you all learned from these two classics? What questions have proved worth the asking about them? Etc. Any help you can give would be more than welcome. I'll send you a copy of the completed guide when I'm done if you want. Peter ___________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:07:12 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Martial Which ??? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Brooke: "....So I am curious Mr. Simms (and no disrespect intended), what happens when you find yourself on the ground with somebody who is in obvious disagreement with you and want to break things on your person? Where's the traditional Hapkido manual for that?..." One more time we have step over from talking about art to talking about science. Which do you want to talk about because I will tell you right off the bat I am not participating in one more discussion where people jerk each other around rocking back and forth between the two. Been there; done that; bought the T-shirt. OK. Do you want to talk about the ART? Fine. Then lets talk about a stable and enduring curriculum for which modification is the exception rather than the rule. Lets talk about common technology for which there is a common language, discernable traditions, underpinnings of history, culture and philosophy. In such a case the Journey IS the End. OK. Do you want to talk about SCIENCE? Fine. Then lets talk about finite body of knowledge that can be modified--- perhaps even rapidly as one gets the results from Scientific Method. The terminology may be standard at any given moment but is subject to change without notice as different influences are made felt. The same goes for traditions, history and philosophy. Everything can change because people are constantly taking what they have and applying Scientific Method to see what holds up against various hypotheses and in what manner. I am a firm believer in Martial ART. I can talk about it all day long. The ART I practice has its foundations in Korean Martial SCIENCE and if I am to honor my kwan I better know something about it. But if I am driven by SCIENCE then I need to put away practicing Wol-Do and start boning up on my riflery because THATS the current weapon of choice for the Korean military. YMK Hapkido HAS groundwork, but nothing like BJJ. I practice YMK Hapkido which is a MA not a MS. CAN you use a MA as a MS? Certainly. LEO-s study MA all the time and can use the techniques on the street. CAN you make a MA out of a MS? Of course, thats how most of our arts started, right? But if you are going to have a discussion with me about MA OR MS then lets start by deciding which side of the fence you want to compare notes on, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:15:05 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Simms on the ground Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Brook writes: <> I guess Bruce will either 1. Beat him to death with his keyboard.. 2. Talk him to death 3. Yell I quit because it is getting too hard... i.e.. Colorado...and Boston. Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 12:31:44 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: To The Point #2 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net OK David. Lets do this the old-fashion way. I will direct this question at you and you only. and I will wait for your answer. "I was asking you why you feel compelled to rant about a post that many of us found helpful, and turn thepost's subject on its head by launching a discussion that seemed roughly about the purity of korean martial arts - a subject that would require gargantuan leaps of logic to link to craig's original post...." Here is my original thought-- directed at you and you only. Why might YOU, Dave Weller, use Craigs execize rather than utilize the same amount of time to practice (or learn) Korean form? Just this and nothing more, Dave, because this was all my post was about. Answer? Regards, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:45:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Lopez Fifth Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Steven Lopez Fifth in USOC SportsMan of the Year Voting COLORADO SPRINGS, CO Feb. 2, 2005 Swimmer Michael Phelps, gymnast Carly Patterson and the U.S. Olympic Softball Team have been voted the 2004 United States Olympic Committee SportsMan, SportsWoman and Team of the Year, respectively. Taekwondo Olympic gold medalist Steven Lopez (Sugar Land, Texas) finished fifth in the SportsMan of the Year voting, joining Phelps, gymnast Paul Hamm (Waukesha, Wis), cyclist Lance Armstrong (Austin, Texas) and track and field athlete Justin Gatlin (Raleigh, NC) as the top five vote getters. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 17:56:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Martial Which ??? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, I personally can understand if someone finds a martial art and don't want to study another one. I think if one wants to know how to deal with other attacks, setups, defenses, etc in other martial arts, they may not necessarily have to study that martial art but they should spar, fight, etc with people in other disciplines..."Know thy enemy". To be honest we do it everyday. For instance, with cars. A mechanic can show us how to do certain things to repair our car and we can take that and repair what is needed, yet not studying to become a mechanic (abandoning our career). It is my opinion though, that if one studies another or other arts/sciences, it will give them a deep insight into a common study; simply a different point of view. If one looks at a box from one side, they know all their is to know about that oneside, but they lack knowledge about the other sides. jye Bruce Sims wrote: Dear Brooke: One more time we have step over from talking about art to talking about science. Which do you want to talk about because I will tell you right off the bat I am not participating in one more discussion where people jerk each other around rocking back and forth between the two. Been there; done that; bought the T-shirt. OK. Do you want to talk about the ART? Fine. Then lets talk about a stable and enduring curriculum for which modification is the exception rather than the rule. Lets talk about common technology for which there is a common language, discernable traditions, underpinnings of history, culture and philosophy. In such a case the Journey IS the End. OK. Do you want to talk about SCIENCE? Fine. Then lets talk about finite body of knowledge that can be modified--- perhaps even rapidly as one gets the results from Scientific Method. The terminology may be standard at any given moment but is subject to change without notice as different influences are made felt. The same goes for traditions, history and philosophy. Everything can change because people are constantly taking what they have and applying Scientific Method to see what holds up against various hypotheses and in what manner. I am a firm believer in Martial ART. I can talk about it all day long. The ART I practice has its foundations in Korean Martial SCIENCE and if I am to honor my kwan I better know something about it. But if I am driven by SCIENCE then I need to put away practicing Wol-Do and start boning up on my riflery because THATS the current weapon of choice for the Korean military. YMK Hapkido HAS groundwork, but nothing like BJJ. I practice YMK Hapkido which is a MA not a MS. CAN you use a MA as a MS? Certainly. LEO-s study MA all the time and can use the techniques on the street. CAN you make a MA out of a MS? Of course, thats how most of our arts started, right? But if you are going to have a discussion with me about MA OR MS then lets start by deciding which side of the fence you want to compare notes on, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1900 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 20:01:54 -0600 From: Master Mac To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] sharing a room in Jackson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Klaas barends "Just a crazy idea, but he, why don't they share rooms???" 2 different people on different sides of the US that don't know each other - the male is married. I know my wife wouldn't approve.... Otherwise, good question and one I already mentioned to the female, who didn't seem interested. I realize most would just be more comfortable sharing a room with the same sex. So Klass, you flying in for the big seminar?? We have someone willing to share a room... :-) Mac --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest