Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:15:16 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #51 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1900 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. cho dan (A. Boyd) 2. Re: Sharing rooms (Klaas barends) 3. RE: Re: Martial Which ??? (Jason Thomas (Y!)) 4. Re: Maybe we need to clarify a purpose here...... (Bruce Sims) 5. Re: black belts (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 6. Mixing Martiaal Arts (Don Ross) 7. Art vs. Science? (Brooke Thomas) 8. Right to the point. (David Weller) 9. One steps (David Weller) 10. Re: Re: Maybe we need to clarify a purpose here...... (Ray Terry) 11. Re: Learning a different Art/Mixing (Beungood8@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:30:23 -0500 (EST) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] cho dan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When I was tested for blackbelt the process was in stages. Passing my test for first gup entitled me to come to extra classes where we worked on two things: my endurance, and permutations of the required test material in case things went awry. This led to a yeabe shimsa or practice/qualifying test. These are conducted one month before the next dan test. If you passed, you were able to register for the dan test. That test is called a cho dan shimsa. In the month between the yeabe and the cho dan shimsa, we worked on concentration [listing the parts of the test form verbally, doing the postures without stepping, doing the cuts without stepping, doing it with closed eyes, doing it with obstacles or interruptions, etc] The cho dan shimsa was conducted at HQ and, if passed, was followed by a month or more of waiting for your certificate, uniform and belt to be sent. While we waited, we were referred to as being Cho Dan. This persisted until we had learned the first dan-level material and tested for stage 1 of the 4 leading to second dan. After that we were il-dan. In all cases, my rank was referred to as il-dan, and I was referred to as cho dan until I passed that first test at the black belt level. Although I decided to stop practicing Hapkido at first gup, the process was the same there. Until you had learned something quantifiable at the first dan level you were referred to as cho dan. Incidentally, they also did this at the entry gup level, cho gup. ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher hdgdforum.com ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Klaas barends Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:44:34 +0900 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sharing rooms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > So Klaas, you flying in for the big seminar?? We have someone willing > to share a room... :-) If you promise you won't tell my girlfriend, I will share the room with the female :-) If I can find someone to sponsor the flight......what does a ticket Incheon-Dallas cost these days? -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ Dutch HKD Federation http://www.sangmookwan.com/ SangMooKwan International Training Center Korea --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jason Thomas \(Y!\)" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Martial Which ??? Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:00:04 -0600 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The problem here is that everyone makes their argument with the assumption (consciously or unconsciously) that everyone else has the same goal. There are several old cliché's that come into play here: Japanese vs. Korean, Multiple Disciplines vs. Single (ie... wide vs. deep), combat effectiveness vs. art or historical content. I personally don't have the goal of becoming an elite killer or scientific tactician. I like to train, meet people, learn and have fun. Since I left the poverty of my New Orleans childhood and was discharged from the Army. I've never had a need to defend myself with extreme prejudice and likely never will. If my training has a beneficial side effect in that regard, that's great, but I don't measure it's worth based on how likely I will perform in a situation that will likely never happen. It just doesn't matter. Everyone has an opinion. Just train and have fun. You want to learn how to fight? Do it! You want to immerse yourself in a single art? Do it! You want to mix and match to cherry pick things you like and make "Yourself Ryu or You Do"? Do it! I recently took up the Irish Flute, then I got an Irish Tin Whistle to practice when I only have a few minutes to practice or want something to small to take on a trip(They use the same fingering) as the whistle is small and portable. 1 month into my studies, I found that the Violin is the "King" of Irish Music. Thus I am studying the Irish Flute, the Irish Tin Whistle, and the Violin. My flute teacher says that's disastrous, I'll never truly master the flute by diversifying in such a way. My Violin teacher thinks it great that I'll be spending twice as much time looking at music theory and reading notes. You know what? My goal is not be a concert Violinist or Flutist, much less play in public. It's simply to have the ability to pick up an instrument and make a recognizable sound in the form of old jigs that my grandfather used to play when I was younger. So I take my lessons, practice at home, make reasonable progress towards my meager goal and have fun. Who's it hurt? Train, be tolerant of others, have fun and move on. Jason -----Original Message----- From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:57 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Martial Which ??? Well, I personally can understand if someone finds a martial art and don't want to study another one. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 00:17:55 -0800 (PST) From: Bruce Sims To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Maybe we need to clarify a purpose here...... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".....I guess Bruce will either 1. Beat him to death with his keyboard.. 2. Talk him to death 3. Yell I quit because it is getting too hard... i.e.. Colorado...and Boston....." I think it is important to remember that you are the same Michael who constantly makes a great point of saying that you find these discussion worthless and that "training" is all that matters. This is done with some great flourish that usually includes that such a comment represents your "last" contribution. I could also point out that as mentioned previously you have no idea what you are speaking of since you were not present at either event you mention, and will not be at Jackson this year either. This seems to suggest that you are little more than a gossip-mongerer, mindlessly repeating drivel passed to you. However, the reason that I am taking a moment to make any comment at all is to mention that your post is pretty characteristic of the sort of worthless blather that does nothing to help and everything to hurt intelligent consideration of what we do. a.) You did not clarify anything regarding my comment about Craigs Workout vis form work. b.) You did not adress Brookes question, nor Dave's nor Howard's nor any of my responses. c.) You have not contributed anything of worth to expand the knowledge base or peoples depth of understanding. Fact is, Michael, I did a search of your posts to DD and cannot find a single case where you introduced an original thought. Not one. Your posts are limited exclusively to chiming in with "me, too" kinds of comments, usually on the side of whatever is popular at the time. Yet--- Your contribution was posted and without comment by Ray. Now, I could be wrong, but perhaps this is the time to ask if maybe your post is much more representative of the sort of use folks wish to put this venue to. If this is the case, maybe we need to know it up front. Regards, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:32:55 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: black belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i have three black belts in my school from different styles of taekwondo. since we offer more than tkd, they begin at white belt. i embroider their belts with dan bars representing their black belt rank in a different style. since they obviously have better technical ability than the average white belt, they are welcome to skip a belt every test if they know the new material. if they are in good shape (havent been out of the arts for several years), they fight at a higher belt for tournaments. as someone else said, it wouldnt be fair to have them spar at a lower rank than their ability. we discuss this with the tournament director and have always been met well with this attitude. still, since they dont know our other stuff (forms, grappling, weapons, etc), they do begin again at white belt. all have had the humility to do this with no problem, some even refusing skip rank if they felt they hadnt assimilated enough of the new material. i also feel that its disrespectful to my other students who've been there for years to skip someone ahead of them. just my 2 cents, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy _www.cjmaa.com_ (http://www.cjmaa.com/) 1.573.673.2769 Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply _www.cjmas.com_ (http://www.cjmas.com/) 1.877.847.4072 --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Don Ross" To: Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:51:09 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mixing Martiaal Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I believe Jye is correct with his cooking analogy. One must first master the system and its fundamental underpinnings before cross training in the 'MA of the month.' Within your style's curriculum, you will find certain techniques will flow 'naturally' for your personal biomechanics [your strengths], and others will take arduous training to become effective for you [weaknesses]. Those strengths and weaknesses are not the result/fault of the 'style', but the human variable. And FYI, there could not have been a 'pure' MA since the very first violent confrontation on this planet. - 'more training, less bickering' pil seung, Don Ross --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:52:15 -0800 (PST) From: Brooke Thomas To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Art vs. Science? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims- First, let me apologize for misspelling your name in my original post--that wasn't intentional. Secondly, let me also apologize for not fully understanding (or maybe fully caring...well that's too harsh!) the differences between the two. I do know THIS however, assuming my "angling off" and rapid footwork doesn't save me from a shoot specialist, I WILL hit the mat (street) hard. When I get there (not so artfully), the science of the gound specialist breaks lots of things on my person after his skill allows him to take superior position. Third, and I apologize to him/her for not remembering his/her name, someone said that their Hapkido does have a ground curriculum. The Hapkdo I have learned came from Choi, to GM Ji Han Jae, to Master Jung Bai Lee, to Master Steve Sexton, to Master Fariboz Azhakh. Master Sexton taught me that if you are going to the ground with someone, make sure they're unconscious when they get there. Master Fariborz realized years ago that people aren't going to run up and grab you by the wrist, and so he added in a BJJ/Vale Tudo-ish curriculum to our Hapkido training (after achieving BB). I know to some (maybe you, Mr. Sims?) that is going to sound like blasphemy. How dare anyone add anything to such an already complex martial art? Getting back to the person (who's name I don't recall) who said isn't Hapkido from DRAJJ and therefore should have a Hapkido ground element to it? That hasn't been my experience (or the mount, side control, knee ride, etc. were never identified as "Hapkido" techniques) and I guess if the source is good, why wouldn't I then just go to a DRAJJ school and get it firsthand? And since I'm doing that, as DRAJJ schools are very difficult to find, why don't I just study/add BJJ? Finally, I do apologize that I cannot offer you a discussion (art vs. science) that you have requested. Please do not view that as avoiding the subject...I guess I just don't understand the subject as you view it. Thank you for your time. Brooke Thomas Hapkido Blend --__--__-- Message: 8 From: David Weller Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:11:52 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Right to the point. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Sims asked me a question. > From: Bruce Sims > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: To The Point #2 > > OK David. Lets do this the old-fashion way. > > I will direct this question at you and you only. > and I will wait for your answer. > > "I was asking you why you feel compelled to rant about > a post that many of us found helpful, and turn > thepost's subject on its head by launching a > discussion that seemed roughly about the purity of > korean martial arts - a subject that would require > gargantuan leaps of logic to link to craig's original > post...." > > Here is my original thought-- directed at you and you > only. > > Why might YOU, Dave Weller, use Craigs execize rather > than utilize the same amount of time to practice (or > learn) Korean form? > > Just this and nothing more, Dave, because this was all > my post was about. Answer? > > Regards, > > Bruce > You can call me Mr. Weller, my friends call me Dave and my Mother calls me David. First of all I did not write the quoted material. But I'll answer the question anyhow, just because I am a nice guy. As I stated in my original post (which you neglected to quote so I'll fill it in here.) " I practice my forms daily, and strength train as well (but lots of Mr. Stovalls stuff HURTS!!) and attend class 3 - 4 times per week. If you'd like to discuss any WTF forms in a reasonable, thoughtful manner, I'd be happy to join in. I suspect it's not in you though." Given that statement, I think your question may be answered, but since you seem to be a simpleton, I will explain. I spend MORE time doing my forms/poomse/hyungs and other practice DIRECTLY related to my TKD than I do on strength training. I strength train, and use some of Mr. Stovall's exercises in that program to make myself stronger and increase endurance and flexibility. SO, the answer is: I spend more time on the Korean exercises than the "other" stuff, but i find the "other" stuff to be a valuable addition to my KOREAN martial arts training. One question, one answer. Now, I am done with conversing with you, as Poe said, "evermore". To the other DD members, I apologize for wasting bandwidth on this person, If my statements have offended anyone (except bruce) please accept my humble apologies. As I stated above, I'll not reply to his nonsense again. Dave Weller --__--__-- Message: 9 From: David Weller Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 14:21:36 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] One steps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr Spiller wrote: On Feb 5, 2005, at 12:31 PM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > The same holds true when measuring for attacks to the > high section (face) and low section (groin). The key > is proper measuring, which does NOT entail leaving the > defender in a position where blocking and/or ddging > becomes meaningless. Proper measuring means the > defender must actually DEFEND himself. > Exactly!! And to tie this in with Mr. Terry's question about whether a block is needed if the punch/kick is off the mark, the dan students in our school ignore those off target strikes. Why block what won't hit you? "Waste of energy" is what my teacher says. We do the same in free sparring. It's kind of funny (because we have all been there) to see a lower gup rank throwing these wonderful combinations of kicks and strikes that are 2 feet from you. We just watch them tire out!! And of course give pointers on "closing the gap" ... Thanks for lending to intelligent discussion of our arts! Dave Weller --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Maybe we need to clarify a purpose here...... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 13:09:17 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Yet--- Your contribution was posted and without > comment by Ray. Now, I could be wrong, but perhaps > this is the time to ask if maybe your post is much > more representative of the sort of use folks wish to > put this venue to. If this is the case, maybe we need > to know it up front. I look at this place as a forum where hopefully we can all learn and share. Yet for some reason you never seem to grasp the FACT that continuous (well, almost continuous) rants and raves do little to help others learn or help get your point across to others. Hopefully if you go back and review the positive vs. negative comments you have received during this last rant session you will see just how your approach is failing to 'win friends and influence people'. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 21:02:26 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net CC: wmschultz@meganet.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Learning a different Art/Mixing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 2/5/2005 9:19:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: I am a firm believer in Martial ART. I can talk about it all day long. The ART I practice has its foundations in Korean Martial SCIENCE and if I am to honor my kwan I better know something about it. But if I am driven by SCIENCE then I need to put away practicing Wol-Do and start boning up on my riflery because THATS the current weapon of choice for the Korean military. I see nothing wrong with learning a different Martial Art or method of movement. If what you've learned or what your art has to offer is not fullfilling your needs or protecting you, than I see no other option than going outside your art or moving on to seek more knowledge. Does it "really honor your Kwan" to keep passing on techniques or methods of training that don't deliver what your training for or what they appear to offer? Is it honorable to pass on knowledge to someone that what you teach is going to protect them when it really is not what they need or really work in realtime? I am not directing this at everyone or Art. just wanted to quickly chime in here....first off, i cant believe it, but i really must agree with bruce on not mixing your training ( for the most part )....you should concentrate on one art if you chose the path of traditional MA....to learn two or more styles at once is counterproductive. now, dont get me wrong here, adding some things to your arsenal here and there isnt a bad thing at all, as long as you do it in the context of the philosophies of your base art. I disagree with this statement. "Mixing of Arts or techniques "have been going on for along time and are part of evoloution of the arts. People or cultures cross each others paths and share different methods(Sometimes not a peaceful exchange) of combat that finetune the things in whih they train in. Alot of people out there attend seminars by different masters and then incooperate things they learn into thier training. IS that dishonorable to perform the technique different than YOUR master tells you it should be done? I trained for many years in something and came to realize that it was not meeting my needs in certain areas so I went on to seek more truth and knowledge and eventually a different Art and instructor that opened up my mind to concepts , methods of movement , and bladed /edged weapon techniques that I was never shown or considered. My own two cents... Stay Safe, Jack O --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest