Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 08:36:15 -0800 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 12 #52 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. 1900 members. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Craigs workout/Korean Forms (Beungood8@aol.com) 2. Re: Re: One steps and curmudgeons (Christopher Spiller) 3. Re: One steps (Christopher Spiller) 4. RE: Re: Martial Which ??? (Jye nigma) 5. Mixing Martial Arts (J R Hilland) 6. Bruce, Kevin et al (Brian Beach) 7. Jye's One-Step & Realism (FirstPe315@aol.com) 8. Brooke's Hapkido Mixture (FirstPe315@aol.com) 9. German Hapkido Forum Relaunched (Andreas John) 10. RE: Re: Learning a different Art/Mixing (Rick Clark) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 22:39:50 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Craigs workout/Korean Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Maybe the Craigs workout is a more effiecient way to condition his body and weapons than the Korean forms..... Jack --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 19:52:58 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Re: One steps and curmudgeons Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > For what it's worth, Gen. Choi's encyclopedia of > Taekwon-Do presents step-sparring in such a manner > that if you actually follow the method for measuring > distance between the partners the attacker WILL hit > the defender if the latter doesn't move. In fact, if > the "defender" holds still and the attacker steps > forward with a punch (with no power, of course) the > elbow will be noticablly bent when the fist connects > with the solar plexus. In my estimation, > straightening the elbow puts the fist about 2" > inside the attackers chest :) >>Just a question... In using Gen. Choi's system of measuring, when the defender moves as the attack is coming in will the punch/kick land short of the intended target? Does the defender still execute a block if the technique is going to fall short? If so, what is it they are blocking? I don't know how the ITF does their step sparring, so just asking. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com<< Ray, when the defender moves (steps back, to the side, dodges, etc.) the attack will indeed miss the mark. The defender *usually* still executes a block. It's basically a way of attacking the limb. And let me tell you, when you are on the receiving end of a block executed with power it hurts. There's a reason why Gen. Choi included a host of "forging" exercises in his books, including some for toughening up your forearms. Anyway, from my (extremely limited) knowledge of Escrima I tend to conceptualize this as being something akin to "defanging the snake." The attacker may be punching at you *now* but he might not be able to after you hit him as hard as you can in the arm. And trust me, when you see a punch coming full power you tend to try to block full power, too (even if you are *pretty sure* it's not going to hit you ;-). BTW, I've noticed over the years that if the attacker actually attacks to the solar plexus your block is going to hit him and move the arm because a block generally ends at the shoulder line. This will vary depending on techniques used, of course, but it's a good generality, especially for color belt ranks. Step sparring, in my experience, is not necessarily "no contact." YMMV Now, this, of course, doesn't mean that one *has* to execute a block every time. In fact, in the rather lengthy section of the encyclopedia on step sparring there are several examples where attacks are simply dodged, side stepped or otherwise avoided with no block executed by the defender. Instead the defender simply executes a counter attack. This can be done after dodging, while dodging backwards or sideways, or simply executing an attack while the attacker closes, which is a great example of the "reaction force" theory of power (no it's not limited to pulling your opposite fist back! - part of reaction force is adding the power you generate to that of the attacker's momentum). Hope this helps. Taekwon, Chris __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 20:01:28 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Spiller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: One steps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>> The same holds true when measuring for attacks to the > high section (face) and low section (groin). The key > is proper measuring, which does NOT entail leaving the > defender in a position where blocking and/or ddging > becomes meaningless. Proper measuring means the > defender must actually DEFEND himself.<<< >Exactly!! And to tie this in with Mr. Terry's question about whether a block is needed if the punch/kick is off the mark, the dan students in our school ignore those off target strikes. Why block what won't hit you? "Waste of energy" is what my teacher says. We do the same in free sparring.< Heh, well like I just posted in response to Ray, most ITF'ers that I have come across think of blocking in step sparring as an attack to the limb. Waaaaay back in 1993 I attended a training camp in Colorado with then-Master Sereff. One of the classes was taught by a very senior black belt (Mr. Lang, iirc) who was getting a little irked at some of the blocks being executed (less powerful than the punches we had just done). The comment was: "There are NO blocks in Taekwon-Do!" Now, of course there are (and some of them, like hooking blocks, require almost no power when executed properlly), but the point was that you should be blocking at least as hard as your attacking because the goal is the same: to disable you opponent. Now, I'm not saying a block is going to break your arm or anything, but I have been on the receiving end of some pretty potent blocks and they can hurt. MIght give you an opening in a fight that wasn't there before if done right. >It's kind of funny (because we have all been there) to see a lower gup rank throwing these wonderful combinations of kicks and strikes that are 2 feet from you. We just watch them tire out!! And of course give pointers on "closing the gap" ...< Yes, I rather enjoy seeing people do cool combinations and flying kicks and stuff from a safe distance away. It's like a little break for me :) >Thanks for lending to intelligent discussion of our arts!< Glad to be of service. Dave Weller __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 20:04:29 -0800 (PST) From: Jye nigma Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Martial Which ??? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net True, not everyone trains for the same reason. Some train for exercise, some to learn to defend themselves. Then you have those who want to learn to kill. Depending on what the individual wants out of their training, I guess that should determine how they will want to train. I personally desire to learn all I can and improve on the knowledge I gain. My focus is on fighting, so I like to learn from different sources at times. Jye "Jason Thomas (Y!)" wrote: The problem here is that everyone makes their argument with the assumption (consciously or unconsciously) that everyone else has the same goal. There are several old cliché's that come into play here: Japanese vs. Korean, Multiple Disciplines vs. Single (ie... wide vs. deep), combat effectiveness vs. art or historical content. I personally don't have the goal of becoming an elite killer or scientific tactician. I like to train, meet people, learn and have fun. Since I left the poverty of my New Orleans childhood and was discharged from the Army. I've never had a need to defend myself with extreme prejudice and likely never will. If my training has a beneficial side effect in that regard, that's great, but I don't measure it's worth based on how likely I will perform in a situation that will likely never happen. It just doesn't matter. Everyone has an opinion. Just train and have fun. You want to learn how to fight? Do it! You want to immerse yourself in a single art? Do it! You want to mix and match to cherry pick things you like and make "Yourself Ryu or You Do"? Do it! I recently took up the Irish Flute, then I got an Irish Tin Whistle to practice when I only have a few minutes to practice or want something to small to take on a trip(They use the same fingering) as the whistle is small and portable. 1 month into my studies, I found that the Violin is the "King" of Irish Music. Thus I am studying the Irish Flute, the Irish Tin Whistle, and the Violin. My flute teacher says that's disastrous, I'll never truly master the flute by diversifying in such a way. My Violin teacher thinks it great that I'll be spending twice as much time looking at music theory and reading notes. You know what? My goal is not be a concert Violinist or Flutist, much less play in public. It's simply to have the ability to pick up an instrument and make a recognizable sound in the form of old jigs that my grandfather used to play when I was younger. So I take my lessons, practice at home, make reasonable progress towards my meager goal and have fun. Who's it hurt? Train, be tolerant of others, have fun and move on. Jason __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "J R Hilland" To: Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 00:28:27 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mixing Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I take a great amount of pride in the fact that I have spent many decades in traditional hapkido (let's just call it hapkido), and I place a great amount of value in hapkido as a excellent form of self defense and as an art. I was also studying ground techniques in hapkido long before the Gracie family came into public view. FYIW... Jere R. Hilland, Fargo, ND www.HapkidoSelfDefense.com <<>> --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Brian Beach Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 03:46:12 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce, Kevin et al Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This may be a topic that has come up before but I would like to address it regardless. There are many passionate options about the martial arts that we practice. I.E. best ways of practice sparing. What is the "true" path. Who is more traditional, best way to address conditioning There are opinions that encompass the attitude "rather be be judged by twelve then carried by six " et cetera and so forth. This is my opinion, as much as we love martial arts it is a completely unnecessary activity. We may believe that we are training for an attack that may or may not happen. Chances are that it won't. Most of us are at an age that if we are going to find trouble, we need to seek it out. As a younger man it seemed that trouble was around every corner, now I find most things I can walk away from before it becomes an issue. "Oh this is a bad situation probably best if I remove my my self from here or I could kick this guys ass but what good would come out of it, best if I move on" I only bring this up because of the recent Bruce bashing ( whether it is justified or not ) . Bruce does tend to focus on the boogie men or boogie issues as he sees them in KMA and sometimes not in the most diplomatic manner. I have put forth to Bruce that he is the Don Quixote of KMA. Chasing after giants that most of us see as windmills. But the reality of the situation as I see see it is that in practicing MA in general, we are all a bit quixotic. We all are fighting the boogies in our own life. Preparing to fight against the "other" that we can not control in order to feel that in some regard, we do have some control - and plus it it is good GD fun! So in this regard I would like to put forth - as much as I enjoy the conversations that are discussed here - that we keep in mind that we are all training to conquer ourselves. So perhaps a little patience and understanding would go a long way. Directed to Bruce and all of of us. In Nae, Brian P.S sorry for the rant but I found it necessary. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: FirstPe315@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 04:00:12 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Jye's One-Step & Realism Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye - You have very interesting points Jye but I think you may be missing the point with One-Ste Sparring. It's really not supposed to be realistic. As many have mentioned, the idea is to teach your body things about timing, distance and movement principles. You could perhaps argue that a Brown or Black belt has already learned this, but the more learned of us (I hope I may fit into that category) understand that these principles and abilities are always needing to be honed and still can be by even the most rudimentary of exercises such as one-step sparring (and it's many variances). The reason why this exercise is so important is because beginners really need to learn these basic yet monumentally important movements in a more non-threatening manner. The threat increases as do the drills that promote more and more practicality. That is just a matter of martial life as far as it goes in my opinion. Besides, if one really believes that blocking in and of itself (not talking about parrying or slipping or deflecting et. al.) doesn't understand much about physics as you quoted in your last post. Physics becomes against that possibility once size and strength exceeds your own. Now, to be sure, I'm not speaking exactly to those who may have stronger bones, intercept the technique prior to it's apex of power, use their hips exceptionally well and yada yada yada. I'm speaking about the general philosophy of "blocking" an attack in that it simply isn't possible with somebody larger and stronger. If I were to teach blocking as a self-defense technique to my 5'2" females in the group against my 6'4 and 6'7" students (which I have) I would be an irresponsible instructor because she would be crushed. I would further argue that there really isn't anybody on this list that would want to attempt to block my 6'7" 290 lb. students roundhouse kick. I'd bet money you'd break something before he did. Therefore, when we teach basics and blocks they are in an attempt to train an individual's body something that eventually you want to become more natural. This can include (in terms of walking blocks and strikes) explosive power, maintaining balance while moving forward and backward, using the hips to generate power etc. What we should be teaching students from the beginning (this helps the 5'2" females AND the 6'7" males) is movement. There is no nead to block "per se" if you move properly. And then, if you move properly, you're always in a position to attack. My.02c Jeff --__--__-- Message: 8 From: FirstPe315@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 04:11:59 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Brooke's Hapkido Mixture Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Brooke - Altough I agree with our post and the importance of ground-fighting and Bruce's oftentimes abrasiveness, I am not sure why you don't thing grappling is a component to Hapkido. It is in my system and with my instructor and with his instructor who is a 1st Generation Hapkido man. I guarantee you, our system and it's leaders did not learn BJJ and they (we if I may be so bold) are pretty good on the ground. Not quite (emphasis mine) on the level of a world class Machado or Gracie but far above par. Perhaps your Hapkido system never had this, but you would be incorrect to state that this is not a Hapkido method of fighting and that Hapkido systems do not teach this. Perhaps by and large they don't, but that doesn't mean anything...except that some don't. Jeff --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2005 13:52:18 +0100 From: Andreas John To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] German Hapkido Forum Relaunched Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Folks! I don't want to disturb your reading-flow with this spam, but http://www.hapkido.de is back ;) The intention of the site was and is to provide an open forum for German Hapkido, regardless of style or rank. So every Hapkidoin is weclome. I started this site end of 1998 as far as I remeber. Two others joined the project a little later: Best Regards and many thanks go Jan Siebrecht and Marco Poehler. Now a student of mine has re-designed the whole site, added a forum, a content management system for news/seminars and other stuff like that (Thanks to Stefano Albrecht) The Dojang-Database is as before. Please update your entry. BTW: The old data was migrated to the new system. No need to worry ;) In know that on this liste are some German MA Freaks/Hapkido Freaks around. If you belong to this kind of people: 1.) Please update your link-lists. 2.) We are looking for contributors/moderators/publishers. If you like to publish news directly, send you application yor a login to redaktion@hapkido.{dot de} 3.) Please send us News News News and News. We like to publish ;) redaktion@hapkido.{dot de} 4.) Am RSS feed is planned. Interested? Best Regards from Germany, Andreas John (john@hapkido.de) http://www.hapkido.de --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Rick Clark" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Learning a different Art/Mixing Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:15:55 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Guys, >From: Beungood8@aol.com [mailto:Beungood8@aol.com] >I see nothing wrong with learning a different Martial Art or method of >movement. If what you've learned or what your art has to offer is not fullfilling >your needs or protecting you, than I see no other option than going outside >your art or moving on to seek more knowledge. Just a brief interjection on this point - with our knowledge today we SHOULD look at scientific studies to improve our teaching. For example - stretching is something that has had a lot of research. In a nutshell ballistic stretching is dangerous and should not be used, static stretching is better and PNF is the best. So if there is a better way of doing something the we have a responsibility to teach a better and safer way to do things. >just wanted to quickly chime in here....first off, i cant believe it, but >i really must agree with bruce on not mixing your training ( for the most >part )....you should concentrate on one art if you chose the path of >traditional MA....to learn two or more styles at once is counterproductive. What do you base this on? Your opinion? I have been at the martial arts since 1962 and have trained in a number of martial arts at the same time over the years. I have taught different martial arts classes at in the same day and not had any problems. For example I would start the morning class with Judo, then teach an Arnis class, followed by Ju-jitsu and then a TKD or Karate class. I never once wanted to kick by partner in the Judo class in the head. In my opinion it's good to train in multiple arts because it gives you a vantage point to look at your various core styles. Opening a can of worms here - it's my opinion that many times the reason an instructor does not want you to train outside of their school, association, organization . . . . . is because it will clearly show how lacking in depth they are, or that the system they are teaching is lacking, or that they are afraid of losing a student (read income), or that you as a student will see that they do not know it all, or any of a number of reasons none of which are based on the best interests of the student but on the selfish interests of the instructor (read make all of the money from the student) Personally I encourage my guys to study other martial arts and get black belts in those styles. I encourage them to attend seminars with instructors outside our group to see what they are teaching and IF they find a better way of performing a technique bring it back to the group so we can all improve our technique. >Alot of people out there attend seminars by different masters and then >incooperate things they learn into thier training. IS that dishonorable to >perform the technique different than YOUR master tells you it should be done? After having taught for as many years as I have I doubt any student out there does things as is told by their instructor. Each person will do a technique a bit different than another - it may look very similar but it will be a bit different. As to doing a technique the way another instructor tells you they - MAY see something your current instructor does not see in the way you are performing a techniques and they MAY offer a suggestion that makes sense to you. And they MAY get you doing the technique better than you currently are performing a technique BECAUSE you MAY have been told the same thing by your current instructor but they WAY the seminar instructor described the technique MAY have made more sense. >Jack O --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/the_dojang Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of The_Dojang Digest